Jonathan Thomas (00:00)
Welcome back to the Anglotopia Podcast, where we explore British history, travel, and culture. And I'm your host, Jonathan Thomas. First, a world about who made this episode possible. This episode is sponsored by Find My Past, one of the world's leading family history websites and the home of British and Irish records. Censuses, civil registration, parish records, military records, and the vast British newspaper archive.

If today's conversation inspires you to go looking for your own ancestors, Find My Past is built exactly for that, with a special depth in the UK records that so many of us with British roots need. You can start a free trial at findmypast.co.uk in the UK or findmypast.com in the US, and we will put the link in the show notes. This is the second of two episodes we're recording with today's guests. In the first, we cover Genealogy 101.

How to make your very first steps into your family's past. if you haven't heard that one yet, I'd go back and listen to that one. Today we're gonna go to the next level Genealogy 201, that advanced college course. We're gonna build your confidence as a researcher and introduce some of the richest records that are out there. And my favorite part will connect your own family story to the great currents of British history, the Industrial Revolution, the rise of the newspaper, the constant movement of people across the country and around the world.

Jen (00:59)
Advanced.

Jonathan Thomas (01:18)
British Empire. So my guest across both of these episodes is the perfect person to guide us. Jen Baldwin is the research specialist at Find My Past and has worked professionally in genealogy since 2010. She specialized in British social history and the British diaspora. In other words, exactly the place where family history meets the big sweep of British history. With a family tree that dates back to London in 1635 and ancestors across Ireland, Wales, Scotland, and England.

She lives the work as much as she practices it. She hosts Find My Past Own podcast called A Family History of and co-hosts the historical true crime podcast Was Justice Served? If anyone can make starting your family history feel achievable and genuinely thrilling, it's Jen. Jen, welcome back to the Angletophia podcast.

Jen (02:05)
Thank you very much. Good to be back.

Jonathan Thomas (02:07)
So we did a great overview in the first episode and hopefully people listened to our directives and went and started start started their research and started that family tree and talked to and yeah, talked to the their mom or their oldest rel living relative to get to get started on this journey. So let's pick up where a confident beginner leaves off. ⁓ two records people get very excited about.

Jen (02:15)
Yeah, hopefully.

Call your mom.

Jonathan Thomas (02:32)
are the nineteen twenty one census, which is the most recent available and will be the most recent available for another twenty, thirty years, and the nineteen thirty-nine register. So for anyone who hasn't met them yet, what are they and what makes each one so special? Because we didn't really touch upon the register in the last episode.

Jen (02:51)
Yeah, not as much. So ⁓ the two collections together really kind of bookmark that inner war period, right? So we've got to start with the nineteen twenty-one census and we move to the nineteen thirty-nine register. ⁓ like we said in the last episode, there is no surviving nineteen thirty-one census. So the nineteen thirty-nine register is kind of what we have to kind of put the put the the front and back to that inner war period. They're exciting and ⁓ really rich to

To research together, right? If you use them kind of ⁓ in in collaboration with each other. The 1921 census, if we talk about that for just a minute, it's the most detailed census ever taken in England and Wales, has the most questions out of all of the censuses that existed before. And like we talked about, people filled it out themselves. So you have that unique perspective of seeing their handwriting and seeing who's in the household. but you also have the questions around ⁓ whether or not the children were orphans.

And for the first time, you have the occupation, what they did for a living, but also where they did that. So if they worked for a private home as a domestic servant, it will say that. If they worked for a large company ⁓ like Marmite, it will actually list Marmite on the census and it will give you exactly who their employer is. That's the first time that's ever happened. It's also the first census that records divorce.

⁓ and one of my favorite census examples actually from 1921 is a divorce question. So there's a gentleman ⁓ who fills out the census for himself. He's in a household by himself, he's the only one there. He fills the census in black ink, except for the marriage column, which is a giant red D that he has clearly spent a lot of time on. It's written over and over. You can see the imprint on the page. He felt very passionately about his divorce.

For sure. ⁓ so it really, even just that gives us an insight into who that person was and what he was thinking and and the experience he was going through. We can imply all of that just the way he wrote the census. So if we jump ahead to the 1939 register, ⁓ it kind of bridges the gap, right, between those interwar periods. It's taken right as World War II starts. So it's the ⁓ effort of the government to track who is in the country, who's gonna need rationing cards.

And what their forces really look like. So it is only civilians, and that's really important for people to understand. If your ancestor was already in the military at the start of World War II, they are not going to be in the 1939 register. So it's just civilians. It tracks their name, the household group that they're in, their occupation, their full birth date. So it's the only census like record that we have that actually lists October thirty first, nine ⁓ nineteen one.

instead of just I'm 17 years old or whatever the example is, right? So it's a full birth date. Also, really importantly for women, it tracks their maiden name and their married name. So the 1939 register was a living document for several decades after the war. It's actually the foundational records for the National Health Service, NHS. So when women got married from 1939 on, you have their maiden name recorded and then they would go in and scratch out their midname and write their married name over the top.

so for women's research, it's particularly important. It's just one of those records where you kind of, you know, when you get to 1939 and 1921, these people go from being kind of obscure, like Victorian era, Edwardian era people on a page to actually living, breathing people in living memory, right? 1939 registers our grandparents and our great-grandparents, and we have photographs of them and we might have video of them, and suddenly it's very, very real instead of just this.

person on a page from two hundred years ago.

Jonathan Thomas (06:40)
So and and why are these two records such an important bridge b into the more recent past? How do they help anchor a family before you push back into earlier, deeper British history?

Jen (06:52)
Yeah, so because of the restrictions on records, the it's the most current available kind of national coverage that we have available. and what it does is it gives us that kind of bedrock, that foundation of our family in terms of a modern viewpoint, right? So again, if our oral history or memories can get us back to grandma and grandpa, ⁓ then the nineteen thirty nine register and the nineteen twenty one census can can get us to great grandpa ⁓ and that generation. And

That is really once you find someone in a census, it's very straightforward to keep just go back a decade, another decade, another decade, and and trace them all the way back to 1841. So it's obviously not going to all be the same person, but you can trace the family like a leapfrog system back as you go through the census records.

Jonathan Thomas (07:42)
All right, now for anybody who hasn't listened to the first episode in this series, but they should go back and listen to it, ⁓ is why wasn't there a nineteen thirty-one and nineteen th forty one census?

Jen (07:46)
They should. They should do that.

Right. So the nineteen thirty one census was taken, but it was pulped during World War Two. So they they actually pulped the paper to use it for the war. ⁓ so it just didn't survive. Nineteen forty one census was actually never taken because of the war. So the next available census will be the nineteen fifty-one census, but again, because of that hundred year restriction, we've got a while to wait before we get access to that one.

Jonathan Thomas (08:16)
Yeah, you know, twenty fifty one, just around the corner. I think I'll be seventy when that happened.

Jen (08:18)
Just yeah, it's just tomorrow really. Yeah. Right.

I'm pretty determined to make it until the nineteen until it's released. That's that's the goal.

Jonathan Thomas (08:27)
Okay.

My my

this is completely off topic, but my one of my life goals ⁓ is I want to make it to the tricentennial. ⁓ the America's tricentennial. So if I I'll be happy if I make it to 2076. So with all my faculties intact, preferably. Yeah. Yeah. So ⁓

Jen (08:36)
⁓ the

Right. Yes. Yeah. You gotta be able to enjoy it or it doesn't count for anything. Yeah.

Jonathan Thomas (08:51)
The nineteen thirty nine register in particular is a bit of an unusual document. It was taken on the eve of war, it was to sort of take an inventory of everything the nation had. So what does it tell us that a normal census can't and why do researchers find it so valuable?

Jen (09:08)
So the key piece of information that's not on a regular census is the full birth date and then the maiden name and married name changes for women. It also gives us volunteer roles for the war. So you might see things like ARP warden ⁓ in the margins, which is also like an incredible piece of of history to explore that wouldn't be ⁓ on a a standard census, right? So it really is that.

especially as we build up to the re upcoming release of World War Two records, right? Which will be happening over the next several years on in on on a variety of different websites and genealogy service providers. ⁓ those records are just being released. So the nineteen thirty nine register allows us to kind of set the stage for what happened to our families during the war. And that in and of itself, I think, is pretty powerful, right? So you're seeing

People who were in London and then their children up north somewhere who've been evacuated already. ⁓ those kinds of moments really come alive in the nineteen thirty nine register.

Jonathan Thomas (10:06)
So, and this is this is kind of where family history gets really rich, is you're you're placing your ancestors inside the history of a country during these key pivotal moments and in world history. So let let's start with newspapers. The the 19th century saw an explosion of local and national papers across Britain. And we kind of touched a little bit upon this in the last episode, but why are newspapers such a gold mine for genealogy research and what might we find

out our ancestors were doing in those pages.

Jen (10:37)
And so newspapers covered everything. If you think about what it required to print a newspaper, they wanted to fill all of the space they had because ⁓ empty spaces wasted money, right? ⁓ so they are filling their columns with every little tidbit of information they can find. At the same time, they're obviously covering the big stories and the important stories to the region. So you're gonna get a real taste of life across the spectrum of life. ⁓ you're getting everything from

you know, yesterday's rainstorm all the way through to what we think the future is gonna look like. Some of my favorite articles are always around New Year's Eve when they're predicting what life is gonna look like a hundred years from now, which of course has already gone by for us. ⁓ but you also get these very personal moments. So there's actually a story I was researching ⁓ not too long ago, this group of brothers ⁓ who fought in World War One. And and I think a lot of people kind of go, okay, they're soldiers, they actually all

tragically die in the war. ⁓ two of them die just 12 days apart. And we learn a lot of the details of their situations through the local newspaper. But then if you go a couple of years forward to the 1921 newspapers, you actually learn that their mom was chosen to be the person who lays the cornerstone on the town's war memorial because she has lost three sons. And so you suddenly have this much different perspective of not just the fact that these three boys served in the war and die.

But then also what it's like for the family back home, how that woman is mourning and grieving. And then having her kind of put on public display, if you will, and having her having to be brave and stone faced and be a part of this ceremony. And it's almost like you get to interpret like this social pressure, right? Is there how did she feel about that? How does that get portrayed in the local papers? She suddenly becomes the town hero, but

Is that a job that's assigned to her? Right. And so the newspaper gives us that ability to to ask those questions even. ⁓ because without that local newspaper, we would never know that she's the person who laid that that initial stone.

Jonathan Thomas (12:45)
So the Industrial Revolution reshaped Britain and it sent families moving, not just it's from the countryside to the city, from region to region, and then out into the wider world, which is where the British diaspora comes in. So how did that great churn of people show up in ordinary family histories and in the records?

Jen (13:05)
Yeah, so people tend to follow opportunity, right? So the Industrial Revolution changes the landscape of the country. We know that. ⁓ and it opens up all of those occupational opportunities. So you've got shipyards and mines and factories and the railways. They followed those jobs and opportunities. So from a genealogical perspective, you're suddenly looking at census records that are in different locations or the birth of children that happen in different places. If you have a military family, you might see ⁓ children being born in

several different countries, right? It's not uncommon to see England, Ireland, India, you know, South Africa, ⁓ all over kind of the military landscape of of the empire. But then you also have just everyday people. ⁓ and this is a story I'll I'll share actually from my own family tree. So there's a woman in my past, ⁓ her name is Mary Daniels and she was raised, she was born and raised in Cornwall.

⁓ and I discovered her because she eventually marries one of my great uncles in Nebraska. And when I backtracked her life, I found that she was married originally in Colorado. ⁓ but before that, she's from Cornwall. So she answers a mail order bride ad in Cornwall. She travels by herself on a passenger on a vessel across the Atlantic, gets on a train.

Jonathan Thomas (14:16)
Mm.

Jen (14:23)
Goes from the East Coast into Colorado, goes to the highest incorporated town in Colorado called Leadville, which is at 10,000 feet, marries this man sight on scene, settles up, have they have a couple children. He dies in a mining accident, because this is Colorado's mining boom. She waits a few months, she answers another ad, gets on another train with her kids, moves herself to Nebraska. They get off the train, they she shakes hands, they go to the courthouse, they get married, and then they settle on his homestead.

That's not as unusual as you might think.

Jonathan Thomas (14:55)
And that's a insanely fascinating story. I mean, can you imagine the courage this woman had by like going by herself? Like I I I I'm in awe of this woman, I never even met her.

Jen (14:57)
Yeah.

Right.

Right.

Yeah, I never met her either. And and

you know, so so there's all sorts of things twisted up in that, right? This is in the middle of what we you know, we hear a lot about Cornwall's migration out, where all the miners in Cornwall kind of leave and go to the United States or Australia for their mining booms, but we don't hear about the women very much. And then at the same time, I have family in Colorado, but we d we're not from here. We're kind of move here as a as a collective. My sister actually currently lives in Ledville. They've been there for

twenty, twenty five years or so, we really thought she was the first one in our family to move to Colorado. Now all of a sudden we're all going to the cemetery to see this guy's headstone, right? And like I actually he he is the re his death is the reason that she married our relative.

Jonathan Thomas (15:53)
Huh. Well that's fascinating to think that she lived in Cornwall, which is known for its mining, and then she ⁓ went to Colorado and married a miner. Like Yeah, yeah.

Jen (15:58)
Right.

Right. Well it's very familiar, right? Yeah.

She knew exactly how to live that life. And then she goes to Nebraska and goes to a completely different world. It's just a homestead surrounded by corn and wheat. Yeah. No, there's no mines in Nebraska. There's nothing in Nebraska. Although the original homestead is still there with the the mud hut. Yeah, they still it's still in the family, actually the original homestead. Yeah.

Jonathan Thomas (16:11)
Yeah, I mean there's no mines in Nebraska. There's there's nothing in Nebraska other than corn,

Really?

Wow, that

yeah, I my my my people are Midwestern people through and through. So I but we don't I don't I don't have a place where I can say, you know, that's that's that's where we came from. But yeah, it's I'm more interested in the British connection than the than the than than the Iowa and Nebraska connection. But ⁓ my wife's family ⁓ hails from Nebraska, but they were Italian American and Irish immigrants who settled in Nebraska of all pla in Omaha and

Jen (16:29)
Touch him.

I I hear ya. Yeah.

Okay. Yep.

Jonathan Thomas (16:53)
You know, there were just not vi Yeah.

Jen (16:54)
Omaha's actually a

really, really big Irish American Central. Like like that's one of the spots on the map. Yeah.

Jonathan Thomas (16:58)
Yeah.

They made great food. Both of them never was never hungry at a family event.

Jen (17:03)
They do. Yeah.

There you go.

Jonathan Thomas (17:09)
So ⁓ we're getting off track here, but wow, thank you for sharing that. That was that's fascinating. And if you've got more fascinating relatives, you'll have to drop them in. ⁓ so ⁓ a thing that confuses a lot of beginners ⁓ i is finding the same family popping up in completely different places from one record to the next. Like why did our ancestors move around so much? And how should a researcher think about following them so they don't find the wrong John Smith per se?

Jen (17:12)
Yeah.

I'll do my best. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Right. So

it's all about collecting the eviden like a mountain of evidence, right? So every if if you find the same family kind of over and over again in the same village and you can establish that as kind of their home base, if you will, over the course of several generations, then you're probably pretty secure in chasing that line. But once you start to get into these other locations, then it's a question of, okay, how many John Smiths are there in that town that year?

And you can answer that pretty easily just by searching for that name against the census and just go, well, there's five. Okay. So I need to go through a process of elimination in order to understand which one's mine. Well, the more you know about John Smith, the easier it is to answer that question. So if you have an exact birth date, if you know the name of his spouse, if you know his in-laws, if you know that his occupation changed three times, but he always stayed in the mining kind of world, even though he might have gone from job to job.

That was definitely his career path was that mining operation. Then that sets him aside from the guy who is a solicitor, right? ⁓ if you can narrow down the results a little bit, it's a little bit of needle in a haystack and it's a little bit of process of elimination. But the more you get into his life, the easier it becomes. And then that's when, for me at least, I start adding on the layers of social history, right? That that's when I start thinking about things like what's his socioeconomic class.

Because there's a level where you're gonna find someone who is, you know, middle class versus the lower working class. And there are neighborhoods where those types of distinctions are made, right? And you can just say like, yeah, I know in this part of Birmingham, that's where poor people lived versus the wealthy people. Like so you can start to make those distinctions. There's a lot of clues that we can pull from just

like regular history and the study of these locations, the study of a particular period that allow us to help kind of make educated theories or educated guesses until we have enough evidence to actually be able to say, for sure, that's my guy.

Jonathan Thomas (19:38)
Once someone's ready to go beyond the basics, what does a platform like Find My Past open up for them and what make you know, 'cause like you said, they've got the census, but what makes it especially strong? Yeah, yeah. What makes the what is there beyond that and why is it so strong for British and Irish ancestry research?

Jen (19:48)
So much more than that. Yeah.

Yeah, so our that is our specialty. That's what that's what we do is British and Irish. ⁓ and and so what does that mean? It means that we have partnerships with archives and institutions just kind of all over the the UK ⁓ and elsewhere around the empire countries, ⁓ really focusing on records that help people understand the everyday population of that community. So we delve into all sorts of different types of records. We've got

Records from the Metropolitan Police, and I mean arrest records, but also records about police officers, right? And we have ⁓ an incredible relationship with the Federation of Family History Societies, which is like all the nonprofit organizations across the UK that focus on genealogy. ⁓ we have a relationship with them to help publish their records, and they're going into some of the smallest libraries and archives in the country and transcribing documents and and making those available online.

it's those little projects that actually open those doors for people who are doing research, right? It's those little tiny scraps of paper that are sitting in an archive or library somewhere that we're able to produce because we have this big focus on British and Irish. We also are a company that's based in the UK. I I'm the sole

independent American in the group. but it but our main headquarters are in London and we have an office in Dundee in Scotland. And we really I mean we really are living and breathing the history and the culture of the country ⁓ in a way that ⁓ really makes it possible for us to offer all of that context and information and and you know very if you think about some of the basic things, right? How many ways can a town in Ireland be spelled? A lot of different ways.

But we have people sitting on the ground in Ireland saying, well, actually, you know, here's seven different variations that we didn't think about before. So we have that expertise that allows those doors to be opened.

Jonathan Thomas (21:53)
what what role does the the UK National Archive r play in this? 'Cause I I know they're we we get their press releases in in my inbox and so they they put on exhibitions all the time, but they're they're more than that. What what is their role in all of this and making these records publicly available?

Jen (22:02)
yeah.

Yeah, the National Archives is one of our most important partners for sure. And of course, ⁓ as the you know, National Archive of the country, their collection is incredible and it's vast. And and I mean, you probably know that you know there's there's material in that building and and in their facilities that just can't be duplicated, can't be replicated anywhere else. That partnership is one that allows us to make records available, like military records is a good example or crime records.

a lot of them come from National Archives or TNA. ⁓ but we also get these wonderful little niche sets of material. And and I'll give you one more story about my own family. ⁓ so there's a collection that we digitized several years ago called The Licenses to Past Beyond the Seas, which is a fantastic name for a set of piece of paper. ⁓ it starts in the 1500s and it runs through about the mid-1600s, and they're essentially passenger lists. Most of them are army personnel going from

England over to Europe, ⁓ specifically into Germany. But there are a few in there that include passenger lists to the colonies. And this is a point where if you wanted to travel overseas, if you wanted to cross the Atlantic, you had to go to the local parish and basically get permission from the crown, which was that was kind of a message delivered through your local minister. They would go up the channel, get that permission granted, and then you were allowed to get on the boat. So my own ancestor, Henry Collins.

Travels ⁓ to Massachusetts in 1635 after getting permission ⁓ to pass beyond the seas, ⁓ with his family, his three children, and four servants. And I only know all of that because of this collection that we digitized in partnership with the National Archives. And it's a tiny little record set and it doesn't have very many people in it. But that document is one of the most beautiful handwritten secretary hand style sets of material I've ever seen. ⁓

And it gave me so much more insight. So if you research Henry Collins, 1635 in Lynn, Massachusetts, you'll find him. You'll find him written in books, in black and white text. But to see the original document in full color, the way it was intended, you actually start to understand that, he traveled with a wife and three children. he actually traveled with servants. He brought servants over. So suddenly I'm looking at a socio class that is very different than what I thought I was looking at, right? Because that journey is expensive. So

Those relationships allow us to really make that type of material available to everyone utilizing the site and and interested in exploring history really from any angle. You could look at it from a descendant's point of view, but could also just look at it from an academic point of view or someone just kind of vaguely interested in Atlantic trade during the 1600s. Like that's that's an interesting topic too.

Jonathan Thomas (24:55)
And so and and I guess we should we should make a a good reality check at this point that not everything is online, ⁓ and probab and probably never will be. So how should somebody researching their family history at at this at this stage think about that gap between the online digital records and how they can explore offline the things that they might want to read or see?

Jen (25:02)
N yeah. Correct.

Yeah, I think actually in reality there's more offline than there is online. the last kind of estimate I saw is probably a couple of years old now, is less than ten percent of historical materials actually available online. And and that's with sites like Find My Past adding material every single week, right? I mean we do publish new records every week. So we're trying, but there's a lot to do. ⁓ so it also but it

Because of that, right? It gives us an opportunity because those records still live in archives and churches and museums and these little nuggets of information kind of all over the country. And I would encourage people to go visit them. I go to your local county records office. They have tons of information still. Go to the local museum and start talking to people. Go to the local historical society or family history society and have those conversations. Go to a cemetery.

And as I say, touch grass, right? Like actually get away from the screen for a little while because it it connects you with the past in a way that you I for me, I certainly could never duplicate in an online experience. And I think it's really important to encourage people to do this. You don't have to be a historian or professional to walk into an archive and start asking questions. That's what archivists are for. It's what they do. So go in, make the appointment if you need to.

Ask the questions, have them help you, show the you know, g get your hands on those original materials. It's it's actually I and I know I'm a little bit of a nerd, okay, I'll admit that, Jonathan, but but but being able to actually sit down with the original records is a thrill when you know that you're touching a piece of paper that your ancestor also touched. There's nothing like it in the world.

Jonathan Thomas (26:58)
Yeah, it makes you think of an interesting story related to this. The the current emperor of Japan. This this is a weird segue, but bear bear with me here. ⁓ the current emperor of Japan, ⁓ he's only been emperor for a few years. ⁓ when he was crowned prince back in the eighties, ⁓ he insisted on having a a a proper education and and he went to the UK and he did his graduate level work.

Jen (27:06)
Okay. Yeah.

Jonathan Thomas (27:28)
⁓ at Oxford and he he wrote a he wrote a memoir about his time being the Crown Prince in Oxford. It's really interesting to read. I I highly recommend it. And his specialty was he while he was there and he talks about how he's the Crown Prince and he has to do Crown Prince things, but he also was also there to study. He had he would go to the archives and he would basically study shipping records for like eight, nine, ten hours a day for weeks weeks at a time.

Jen (27:53)
Yeah. god.

Jonathan Thomas (27:57)
And he constructed its entire economic history of ten shipping records on and built a and built a portrait of of the economic comings and goings of of shipping in the in through British history. And I'm like, it's the most random thing. And yeah, and he and he got his degree and then he went back to Japan and now he's the emperor. So it's it it archives are cool, even emperors like

Jen (28:12)
That's amazing. I mean

Archives are cool. That's right. You can do anything you want to do. That's what my mom said. Even if you're gonna be the Emperor of Japan. Yep.

Jonathan Thomas (28:24)
Even if you're gonna be the Emperor of Japan. Yeah. So anyway,

so let let's let's talk about some nuts and bolts things ⁓ related to this. So let's talk about some of the frustrations and maybe they can can you can share some of the secret skills of genealogy. Like, why do names and spellings change so much over time? Why shouldn't we assume our ancestors spelled your surname or your forenames the way that we do? And

How how do you kind of square that circle as you're going researching?

Jen (28:58)
Yeah, so let me start answer in my answer by saying this. their name was not changed at Ellis Island. Did not happen. Did it happen occasionally? Yes, but not because someone in on a at a table said, I think you look more like a Smith, and I'm just gonna change your name. That was not that was not what happened. Names change and there are variation of names because clerks wrote what they heard. Right. And if someone had a heavy accent.

Maybe they heard something that wasn't quite accurate. people were flexible with spelling in many ways because education was not standard, right? If you sat in front of a clerk in 1882, they may or may not have an education above year, you know, their 12th or 13th year of life. So just because it's written down doesn't mean it was written by someone who actually is literate or has a full understanding of who the person standing in front of them was. Most of these records were.

⁓ preserved and and written by someone other than the actual person the record is about. If you go to military records and you look at their attestation papers, that is not filled out by the individual who's actually serving. That's filled out by a clerk somewhere who's doing their best to get through a line of people that is impatiently waiting for them to fill out their forms. So you've got to kind of put yourself into the shoes of the clerk and the person standing in front of that table.

So let me give you a couple of examples. I've been working on a Jewish family recently, and I originally came across them in a newspaper article where they're referred to as the Jacobs family. But in actuality, their surname is Jacobich.

Right. So in the 1939 register, in the 1921 census, I'm actually looking for a a a very different spelling than what I originally came across in the newspapers. ⁓ another story from my own family. My maiden name is Brown, and one of my favorite family stories is that my great aunt, my my grandfather's cousin, saying that right, he rented her farm. He rented his farm from her.

And he you she used to always tell him, my grandfather, that if you put an E on the end of your name, you would be held in higher regard if you spelled it B-R-O-W-N-E. And he didn't use an E, right? So we were just brown with no E, but she always pushed you should add an E to the end of your name. Go back 200, 300 years, and I actually found an article and a letter in a manuscript collection over in England that says,

We dropped the E off of our name when we moved to America because it wasn't as fancy. So there's lots of different reasons why names are changed, why names are spelled differently. It's very unusual for it to be an intentional, I'm gonna change your name because I told you so. It's almost always something about adapting to the culture that they're in.

Jonathan Thomas (31:43)
Ha ha.

Jen (31:59)
or an accent that got misunderstood or misinterpreted, or a a level of literacy that doesn't quite match what we need from from our standards, right? Looking at the records today. So if you have to remember that you're researching people, not names. And and people have a lot of variation to them and a lot of different nuances. And life happens to people and maybe they're standing in a crowd that's really loud and they can't be heard clearly. There's all sorts of situational things when that record is actually being created.

Jonathan Thomas (32:29)
so does Find My Past have like a semantic search that it compensates for these possible misspellings?

Jen (32:34)
Yeah, actually we do. ⁓ and and that's really common in genealogy service providers, actually. So ⁓ it before the internet they came up a with a way to kind of handle these surname variations. Find My Past definitely has a system built in that allows for the most common name alterations ⁓ across the UK and and has the ability to turn that, basically toggle that on and off. So if you really are looking for a very specific spelling, you can say, I only want this.

but if you're looking for something that could be easily misinterpreted or spelled in a number of different ways, like brown, you can turn that back on and you could say, I want all variations of this particular name. There's also a different capabilities built into the site to do more advanced searches, like a wildcard search that allows you to ⁓ put a different character in the place of a letter. So if I wanted to search for Smith, I could I could type in SM.

And then a little asterisk T H and that would search for Smith with an I, Smith with a Y, et cetera, et cetera.

Jonathan Thomas (33:37)
So common surnames are their own challenge. So if you're researching a Smith or a Jones or a Williams or in my case a Thomas, how do you keep from drowning in all the people who had that name through history? What techniques help you find the right person among all these matches?

Jen (33:53)
Yeah, so you're looking for commonalities. and one of the most common one, I think, is probably occupations. ⁓ and that applies generation by generation. So if you find the person that you know for sure is your ancestor and he was a fisherman, ⁓ and then you find someone in the next generation back, there's two options. One's a fisherman and one's a doctor, it's probably the fisherman that you're looking at, right? Because that occupation is generally

in many cases inherited through the family. So you're looking at occupations. Another way to do this is through addresses, specifically, and not even just the village, but specifically the same address, which you can search on census records. You can actually use Find My Past to search for an address instead of a name. So you go to our address search filter and you you type in the street that you want, the the town or village that you want and it comes up with everybody who lived on that street. That would help you narrow it down as well.

You can search across newspaper content for addresses. You don't have to search for a name there either. And actually, that's one of my favorite tricks is searching in newspapers for things like an address or a military service number. Once I have that information, I go to the newspapers and I can find more information about that person. And I know it's him because it's the same address or the same military service number that allows me to narrow that down. Family members are another really great way to kind of keep this under control. So

Try to find someone in the family who is not Jonathan Thomas or Mike Brown. Find someone who is Penelope Thomas, right? Because that's more unusual and it's easier to come across and find and narrow down instead of one of these, you know, like larger, more common names. So the more uncommon first name you have will lead you to generally the right family, even if the surname is incredibly common.

Jonathan Thomas (35:41)
Suddenly grateful that one of my grandfathers was named Abel.

Jen (35:45)
See, there

you go, that's perfect.

Jonathan Thomas (35:48)
So ⁓

I I I love the idea of family history as a bit of detective work. So what are some of the unexpected discoveries beginners can stumble into when they begin this journey? The the surprises that suddenly make the whole thing feel alive.

Jen (36:02)
gosh, where do you even start with a question like that? I think probably some of the most common ones are things like military service, where you may go, I know my ancestor is in the Navy, but what did he do? Where was he serving? What was he involved in? Or she. ⁓ let's not forget the women here too, right? that that type of detail on that generic comment of my ancestor served in World War One or he was in World War II.

That can really become a lot more ⁓ interesting when you start to add this detail to it. So so military records are probably one of the most common ones. I think migration stories become ⁓ unexpected. ⁓ and the surprising stories about how you might connect records piece by piece, right? So ⁓ another example from my own family tree, I'll use a lot of those. ⁓

But I have an an I an ancestor who was born right before the famine in Ireland. He he survives the famine. He actually ends up getting arrested. ⁓ he serves about four months, I think, in Cork prison. He ends up in Wales with his family. And then from Wales, he goes up to Liverpool for like a month and then Liverpool over to Pennsylvania. And I know all of that because of newspaper content, because of ⁓ arrest records, ⁓ because his

Sit his though, you know, he got arrested twice actually. So once in Wales and once in Ireland. The situation in Wales was a bar fight, like quite literally. ⁓ and so that's covered in the newspaper in in a lot of detail. I think it's I think what's most surprising to people is the way the records all connect to each other to tell a much deeper, more interesting story. It's not just about finding a single passenger list. It's about finding all of these elements that come together to actually give a really vivid picture.

Jonathan Thomas (37:56)
So you've already shared some examples already, but can you give an a another few real life examples of the kind of stories that can emerge like a migration no one knew about, a military record or maybe even a scandal in the family? You you've got a knack for these. So paint us a picture.

Jen (38:12)
⁓

so I think one of my favorite stories I haven't mentioned yet is actually Audrey Thompson. average, you know, young lady entering ⁓ her twenties at the start of World War II. She volunteers for the Women's Land Army, and the next thing you know, she is the country's top rat catcher. They have a competition. She go she enters the competition, and her and this other girl become the winners, and she travels the country.

Doing presentations and getting her picture taken by local media of the top rat catcher fighting to save Britain from the Nazis. That's how it's coined, right? Because because we needed the crops and the rats would eat them. And so ⁓ she catches the rats to make sure that the crops survive and we can feed our men over in Germany. So in like in in Europe. It it's just one little example.

And her story doesn't stop there, but that's you know, that's the the headline of Audrey's t story, I think. ⁓ there's a lot of crime stories. The true crime stories are great. and you get what you expect, like the Jack the Ripper style situations, but you also get little tiny situations. There's a a crime case that we handled that on the Was Justice Serve podcast where we talk about.

you know, it's the big Who Dunit, but the woman is found in the home of her employers. She's the domestic servant. She's been killed in the middle of the night. There's a big storm, there's lightning. They think they hear a noise, but they just think, it's the storm. Turns out she's having an affair with one of the local men in town. She actually actually get caught having sex at the local parish inside the church. So it's just this unraveling of like the Hollywood's best who done it.

but actually real life, right? actual genuine people. ⁓ I I think some of those are are probably the most fun to research, but also the more poignant ones are especially around, I would say probably the two wars, right? The two world wars. we spend a lot of time at Find My Past thinking about our military ancestors, and remembrance is is always a really important moment for us every year. So I spend a lot of time researching. ⁓

these men who have never come home and the women who served as well. ⁓ and some of their stories are really impactful. And, you know, you're kind of sitting I I'm actually grateful I start that research pretty early in the year every year. ⁓ because it sometimes I just need to kind of step away and like I just can't read any more of this anymore. Right. ⁓ so it does get a little bit emotional. You gotta expect to get emotionally attached to some of this.

Jonathan Thomas (40:50)
Yeah, I'm I'm reminded that's a good point about how ⁓ Britain is particularly skilled at remembrance. Like it we we have remembrance here in the US and we tend to focus on Memorial Day and Veterans Day. But we think more ⁓ in abstractions and the overall ⁓ military, not necessarily individuals, unless you had a direct connection. ⁓ but in the UK, remembrance is a is is is almost a cultural touchstone.

Jen (40:57)
Mm.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Jonathan Thomas (41:20)
And it's always surprising to see and one great example of this is a few years ago ⁓ we were traveling in London for for Christmas time and I had to go to the bank ⁓ to get some pounds. And but I I banked at HSBC, which is a global bank, British bank. And so I intentionally, as as I run a British themed business, I would bank at a British bank so that when we traveled, I could easily not have to pay ATM fees basically.

Jen (41:48)
Right. Yeah.

Jonathan Thomas (41:49)
So so I was

like, we gotta go to the branch so I don't have to pay, you know, the conversion fees or the ATM fees. And so we went to the branch and I went in the bank, got my cash, and then I looked around and because I'm always curious about how things are different. And ⁓ I noticed that there was ⁓ a remembrance plaque on the wall for a bank employee of that HSBC bank branch from a hundred years ago, and there were fresh

remembrance poppies to remember that employee. And like no one, you know, there's the Yeah, there's no one does that in the States and even the people who work there now probably have no connection to this person, but yet he hasn't been forgotten and there's a plaque for him and there's gonna be poppies there every every remembrance day. And it's it's fascinating.

Jen (42:17)
Yeah. Yep. No one does that in the States. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓

No.

Every time. Yep. I I th

that is actually so I I was just over in London a couple weeks ago. And it once you start to see those things, you see them everywhere. So you know they're in every parish church, they're in every major building. our our office for Find My Past is on Fleet Street. There's one immediately outside our office on the wall facing the the street. ⁓ those types of

moments and memorials I think are so common. And in fact, I think I read somewhere there's only one or two villages in the country that doesn't have a World War I memorial. That might be right. ⁓ but the vast majority of them do. So it is something that's really recognized. And and again this is kind of speaks to the benefit of having online services like Find My Past that are really focused on the UK, right? Because we have a collection on our website that

photographs each of these memorials across the country and gives a list of all of the names that are listed on that memorial. So even if you're sitting in Colorado, you can still access a photograph, you can see what it's like, you can see all the names who are listed. And it's it's in it's really powerful when you get a situation where you have like a series of brothers, right? I talked in the first podcast that we did, the first episode that we did about the Attenborough brothers.

Who all died, the three brothers who die in World War I, they're all listed on the same memorial, and then their mom goes and lays the cornerstone, the foundation stone for that memorial. But and and so that gives us a a research opportunity, right? That that makes us realize that there are three people with the same surname on the same memorial. In a small town, they're probably related. But it also gives us an opportunity for expanded research, right? So you think about World War One and the PALS battalions, where they recruited whole battalions from the same community.

All of those men would have been neighbors before the war. They went to school together. They, you know, they married each other's sisters. They they went to church together. So you get this situation where you're looking at an entire village of people who enlist and go serve and then get caught up in a battle and hundreds of them die in the same night. That's a really powerful moment to kind of sit back and go, this is more than just a pedigree chart now. This is actually.

an opportunity to remember them, to say their names out loud, to make sure that they're not forgotten, ⁓ and to really acknowledge and recognize that that entire village made that sacrifice, not just one family.

Jonathan Thomas (44:57)
Yeah, and and I always recommend people stop and look at the war memorials in the local villages and towns that they visit because they do provide a window into the village's past that you that that makes it tangible. And when you see names of the same family or you see, you know, the difference between how many names there are for World War One versus World War Two and you can kind of fill in the blanks of the history of the place just by visiting the memorial. And how well it's taken care of too.

Jen (45:22)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Yes, also very telling sometimes, yeah.

Jonathan Thomas (45:30)
Yeah.

So there can be a temptation to chase a perfect family tree, quote perfect. ⁓ so you encourage people to keep that curiosity alive instead. So what's the difference between healthy curiosity and perfectionism and why does it matter for staying with your genealogy as a hobby?

Jen (45:37)
Mm.

I think if you're too focused on the perfect family or the or finishing your family tree, like how far back in time can I go and how many ancestors can I collect? I you know, a lot of people find that really enjoyable and that's a lot of fun for them. That's fantastic. ⁓ but for me, I think the satisfaction comes with understanding this this larger depth of their lives.

⁓ when you're looking at quantity over quality, what you're really doing is you're kind of skipping like the opportunities for additional research, right? So when you are just purely looking down one pedigree chart, one line, you're kind of missing that, well, he actually married the next door neighbor and they'd known each other since they were two years old, and their moms were best friends.

But ⁓ actually now their husbands, their fathers both work together and they had a fight. It's covered in the newspapers. And now they don't s talk to each other. But then their kids got married and started making grandchildren together. And so now what is that family dial dialogue like? Right. Like there's it's basically just thinking about family gossip, I suppose, but like a hundred years ago. And to me, that's the bit that I think keeps people coming back.

What happens, I think, is when people start down this hobby, you realize that at some point there's you have an emotional reaction, right? You make a discovery and you've been researching this, trying to find this thing for a a bunch of hours or even sometimes months or years, and you finally find it. It's two o'clock in the morning, and you're literally jumping up and down in front of your computer. And I've been there, done that because it's actually happened. ⁓ and then you realize that I found this thing, but now I have a hundred more questions that I wanna I wanna ask.

Jonathan Thomas (47:24)
Yeah.

Jen (47:32)
Because now I have this new piece of information, but it's only opened up that that list of questions. So now I have to answer all of those questions too. And if you limit yourself to not looking at their social environment and and what was happening around the world in the country when they were alive, then then you're cutting off opportunity for you to have those incredibly satisfying moments where you actually put all the pieces together and it all kind of starts to click and then another light bulb goes off and you're up at two in the morning again.

Jonathan Thomas (48:02)
Well, and how do you console people who find that they don't have the royal lineage they thought they always had, or aristocratic lineage or a connection to a famous castle or house?

Jen (48:08)
Hello.

Yeah. The castle is one I've I still regret. I still wish I had a castle in my family tree somewhere. you know, I think a lot of us go into it thinking like, ⁓ yeah, it would be really cool to find a celebrity or someone royal. And actually a lot of us are descended from families like that. We just don't know it yet, right? So those types of families, royal families, have thousands of descendants around the world. So it's not unlikely that you're gonna find something. At the same time.

I would argue that our regular everyday ancestors are far more interesting. We can read the biographies of Henry VIII, but there's no biography on my ancestor, Archibald McKinsey from Ireland, right? Not until I write it anyway. I probably will someday, I hope. ⁓ it it's it's the adventure of history that makes it. It's the chase, it's the detective work. That's the part that really makes all of this so rewarding, is the idea that.

I found that, right? That's my discovery. That's something that's never been known to history before. But I've just uncovered that for the first time in the last 150 years. The last person to know that has been gone for 150 years. So I've just made that discovery. It's like giving you the opportunity to play detective and historian and archaeologist, all and you know, all of the other is kind of all at the same time.

Jonathan Thomas (49:38)
Let's ⁓ let's send people off with their next assignment assignments after this episode. So the first one is they should try and find parish records. ⁓ what are parish records with different kinds of parish records, whether they were Catholic or Protestant? And so why are they a natural next frontier after they've kind of mined the census for all they could?

Jen (49:59)
Yeah, so parish records, ⁓ there there's strengths in parish records in a couple different ways. So just to clarify what parish records are and how they divul differ from civil civil registration. Parish records cover baptism, marriage, and burial versus civil registration, which is birth, marriage, and death. So three events that basically all happen in usually coincide with each other, but sometimes that baptism can happen 10 years after the birth, right? So it's a

It's another opportunity for research and record keeping about your ancestor and their family. Okay, so that's two sets of records that you should try and find. The benefits of parish records is that they go back much further in history than civil registration. Civil registration starts in the 1830s. Parish records begin much earlier than that. The earliest ones we have on Find My Past are actually from the 1300s. There's not very many of those, but they do exist. ⁓ and and that is for ⁓

What is now the Church of England. ⁓ Catholic records, of course, have the same tradition and they go back significantly far as well. ⁓ and when you think about the Catholic population, Ireland in particular, that's a very important part of the Irish population. So we need Catholic records for sure in Ireland. But I think people might be surprised at the number of denominations across England and Wales. So 1851 census had an additional piece to it. They actually did a religious census in 1851.

And the objective was to count how many Anglicans they had versus how many other denominations. And there was only about 50% of the population reported as Anglican and 50% as something else. And I think that statistic actually surprises people who are thinking about British history because we kind of tend to think that Church of England, right? It's the state church. ⁓ but there are 50% of the population that's out there living a completely different religious life.

And all of those religions have their own version of parish records. Almost every religion that I know of, anyway, has some form of parish records. The other benefit in England and Wales is that for such a long time, the parish was actually the government, right? So when you filed your tax, when you paid taxes or when you needed financial support because you were, you know, having a hard time or you you gotten sick or something, or somebody died, you needed support. The parish was the one who gave that to you, not the state.

So the parish chest records come into play, and that gives us a window into what we now think of as the role of the government, but historically was handled by the church. And those records were kept in the individual parish buildings. So if you walk into a church today, when you're in England and you see like an old style looking chest in a corner somewhere, that's the parish chest. That's literally the box they kept the records in. They would also collect

Taxes and fees there. So there's often a little slit in the top of the lid where they'd drop a coin in. But they actually kept the books in those in those chests. And so when people started becoming interested in this history, and then the idea of microfilm and and historical preservation was born in digitization, they finally brought all of those registers out of those chests and started actually making them available online. So those parish parish records are usually what we refer to in terms of baptism, marriage, and burial.

And those are kind of our vital events that give us information about each individual person. But then the pairs chest records tell us about the community and the role our ancestors played in that community.

Jonathan Thomas (53:31)
So the the next task we want to give people is to explore a different side of their family tree than they would normally explore. So why is deliberately switching branches such a good way to break through and keep things fresh as you go through this this history?

Jen (53:39)
Yeah.

Yeah, I think it's an important technique. we we want fresh eyes, right? So if we if we've been working on a particular side of our family for a long time and we get to the point where we're just like, I can't find anything new. It's getting frustrating. ⁓ I can't remember what I've done and what I haven't done. I if you take a step back from that branch of your family and you just go look at some other random person, right? It's ⁓ your mom's cousin or ⁓ a grandmother you haven't haven't looked into yet.

Fresh eyes will often help you solve the original problem, the person you've been working on for the last five years. So if you look at maternal lines, ⁓ siblings, in-laws, it in my opinion, no one is off limits, right? There's a lot of people who really like just to stay on that one biological paternal and maternal line, and that's okay. But if you need a mental break, the best way to solve a problem sometimes is to just go deal with something else and walk away from it for a little while.

So sometimes the answer that you're looking for is hiding in another branch of the family. That other branch will give you opportunities to do research you haven't done before, to get into records you haven't played with before, to see a different component of the country. Maybe they lived in a different county, ⁓ or instead of an army ancestor, suddenly you have someone who is a merchant marine that gives you an opportunity to see that same moment in history from a different lens. And then that goes, ⁓ wait a second, that's what I was missing about the original guy.

And it all you know, it's it's one big puzzle and it all connects. And the more we do and the more ex the more practice we have with researching and with genealogy, the more we're able to put those dots together and the light bulbs again just keep going off.

Jonathan Thomas (55:27)
All right, and the third task is more to t to do as you're doing all this research is to note your sources properly. This is this is a habit beginners can skip and later regret, because why does citing where you find something matter so much, even for just if you just want to

Jen (55:34)
⁓ please.

You need to cite your sources because future you will forget where you got it. That's the basic answer, right? ⁓ the more complicated answer, I suppose, is that at some point down the road, you're gonna go, Hey, I remember that thing and I think it was something like this, and that record actually had this little piece of information on it that maybe I didn't quite understand thoroughly. But if you don't know where you got that record and it's gone from your memory, ⁓ then

It's gone, right? And you have to go through that search process again to find it. Humans make mistakes and humans don't have perfect memory. So we need to write these things down for ourselves. The other part of it, I think, that's important to remember is it doesn't have to be strictly academic, right? ⁓ if you want it to be, it sure can be. There are guides and manuals about how to do genealogy citations. But at the bare minimum, we just need to know where something came from, right? Save the URL.

or the website or the name of the collection of records that you found it on. ⁓ and I promise future you will thank present you for being really, really strict about creating some form of citation for everything that you find.

Jonathan Thomas (56:56)
And does Find My Past help with this? Perfect.

Jen (56:58)
Of course we do. ⁓ one of

the best ways to do this on Find My Past actually, so you yeah I you know there's a number of different options. Everybody likes to do it their own way. ⁓ but on Find My Past we offer a tool called Workspaces and it actually gives you kind of a digital folder to save everything. So you can attach it to your tree and you can download it and you can print it and you can have a Word document running with your notes, whatever, however you want to do that. But if you save it to your workspace, everything is right there connected. And then the workspace will actually formulate maps.

and other suggestions and it gives you a little post-it note, like a digital post-it note, so you can keep track of like, don't forget to go off and do this because I'm down this rabbit hole, but I had an idea and I want to go pursue something else. So the workspace feature on Find My Past is where all of that can live and citations easily live there.

Jonathan Thomas (57:46)
So if there's one mindset shift that turns a nervous beginner into a competent family historian, what would you say it is?

Jen (57:54)
Hmm. I think that this is ⁓

This is something that is challenging and it's a lifelong hobby. And the reason for that is because there you never stop learning, right? You never stop learning about a particular angle or particular particular perspective of life. There's new records that come available all the time. Genealogy really rewards patience more than it does some moment of brilliance, right? This is something that we're gonna most of us get into and we get into it for the forever, right? I've been doing this since I was about 10 years old and I don't see myself stopping ever.

⁓ so this lifelong hobby allows us to learn something that that that connects us back to the research we did 10 years ago, right? I fully expect that in 10 years some new light bulb's gonna go off about something that I did 20 years ago already. ⁓ this is an opportunity for us to replace perfection with curiosity. And I think that's important just as human beings, right? This is ⁓ not to bash on gamers because I I do love my own video games, but

This is something that accompanies us as we go through our lives and has the ability to teach us about our world today just as much as it does about history.

Jonathan Thomas (59:09)
And I think you also answered the next question and then the process of answering that question. So I have one more question and forgive me for putting you on the spot. But ⁓ you you've traced your ancestry back to London in sixteen thirty-five. What can you tell?

Jen (59:23)
So ⁓ the information I've been able to find actually is the same story I was telling you earlier about the family that went to Massachusetts in 1635, right? On the registers of licenses passed beyond the seas. But I do know that they came out of the St. Dunstan's parish of the East. They were

probably some kind of middle class level, although I don't know his occupation yet. I do know that at the parish, ⁓ at least his father and probably his grandfather were all baptized in the same parish. And that church I've visited, ⁓ and they still have the same baptismal font sitting in the building. So that was actually extraordinary to see the place ⁓ where they were baptized.

⁓ and they live not far off of Radcliffe Highway, which at one point was famous for a series of murders. So that was an interesting one to go to interesting road to go down. The steps down to the Thames ⁓ along Radcliffe Highway are still in the same place as they were in the 1600s when my ancestors would have been there. ⁓ I actually believe, and I'm my family's pretty sure this is true, I'm the first person in our direct line to go back to London since they left in 1635.

so that first trip over for me was extraordinarily special.

Jonathan Thomas (1:00:41)
Well, I think ⁓ I my d I guess my takeaway from this is I need to go talk to my grandma and and I need to start filling in the blanks in the family tree because

Jen (1:00:46)
There you go. You know,

ironically my dad called in the while we were recording this. Probably to talk about genealogy. ⁓

Jonathan Thomas (1:00:54)
⁓ Well, you better call them back. So So,

Jen, this has been a brilliant next step. Between these two episodes, I think we've given people everything they need to start their family history and to keep going when it gets interesting. ⁓ thank you so much for joining us across both these episodes of the Anglotopia podcast. And if you haven't heard our first conversation, Genealogy one one, well, go back and listen to it. It's a perfect perfect place to begin.

And our thanks once more to today's sponsor, Find My Past. If this conversation has you itching to trace your own family's history, there's no better place to begin than the UK and Irish records at Find My Past. You can start a free trial at findmypast.co.uk in the UK or findmypast.com in the US. The link

is in the show notes and you could be making your first discovery tonight. So if you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, like, or comment and tell us about the most surprising thing you found in your own research of your family tree over on YouTube, Instagram, or Facebook. And if you love the Anglotopia podcast, please consider joining the Friends of Anglotopia Club, where you can get early access to new episodes and connect with other Britain enthusiasts. So join us next time.

As we continue exploring the people, places, and stories that make Britain so endlessly fascinating to discover. Thank you, Jen.

Jen (1:02:10)
Thank you so much, Jonathan.