Jonathan Thomas (00:21) Welcome to the Anglotopia podcast where we explore British history, travel and culture. And I'm your host, Jonathan Thomas. Today's episode is going to be a bit different and I think you're going to enjoy it. I've been looking for an excuse to do a straight up British history book conversation. And today I have one because I've got a fellow podcaster and fellow history nerd on the show to do exactly that. Brendan Dowd is the host of History Nerds United, a podcast dedicated to making history fun again. featuring interviews with award-winning authors and the enthusiastic commentary of a man who grew up the son of a history teacher who graduated from West Point and served as a tank platoon leader in Iraq and now serves as a government consultant in Virginia. He started History Nerds United because he was annoyed at the state of online book reviews and decided to do something about it. A man after my own heart. That's actually why I started Anglotopia. I was annoyed by all the other British-themed websites. I was like, I can do better. So. He now has nearly 200 episodes in and we've each come today with a stack of our favorite history books about Britain. And we're going to go back and forth, share our picks and tell each other why these books matter so much to us and historical discourse. And hopefully leave our listeners with a reading list to last them the next few years. Brendan, welcome to the Anglotopia podcast. It's great to have a fellow nerd on the show. Brendan (01:41) Jonathan, thank you so much. I'm super psyched. Jonathan Thomas (01:43) Yeah, I've been looking forward to this for weeks. So ⁓ first, let's start off. Let's talk about you for a little bit so people can get an idea. You're you graduated from West Point. You're an Army veteran. You're now work for the government and your side project is a history podcast. How does a tank platoon leader end up with a nearly 200 episode podcast about history books? Brendan (02:05) You know, it's a really great question. I'm still not sure I have the right answer for it. You mentioned it a little bit. ⁓ In the military, I was not reading a lot. There was a lot of things going on. But when I got out of the military, got a civilian job, living near DC, having to go into DC, but not having enough money to live in DC, I all of sudden had a really long commute on a train and just picked up the reading bug again. I had it when I was younger, but you know, especially Later in high school, college, I just lost it and I just, came back with a vengeance. And, you know, as somebody else who loves history, you know it, you'll see maybe five, six reviews for history books sometimes. And there are these amazing diamonds in the rough that are ignored. And ⁓ there was something about going on Amazon, looking for books that are suggested for you. And Amazon's like, this is weird, man. I don't know what to tell you. to because nobody else reads this stuff. And then seeing a book and saying, I love this book. Why does it only have a 2.5? And you'll see a review and it said, my Kindle was missing a page, one star. And I just, lost it. I said, there's gotta be a better way. ⁓ I don't want to continually torture my family with all of my rants about books. So I decided to start the blog, which was one thing, you know, just being a nerd, having a blog. using Goodreads, that's one thing, but what I found was I'm the youngest from an Irish Catholic family. I went into the military. have no shame whatsoever. It's been completely beaten out of me. And the first day I launched History Nerds United, said, okay, what I'll do is I'm going to email some authors, see if I can send them some questions and they'll send it back to me. Thinking, if I send out 10, maybe one gets back to me. I'll be super excited. I'll put that up as a blog post. I sent 10 on the first day and I got eight back within three days. And I was like, oh, I guess I just got lucky. And a couple of the authors I said, oh, I'll just email you the questions. like, let's hop on the phone. Let's talk about it. And I learned so quickly that the history environment, the history culture, these people, I tell everyone we're at, I think now 225 episodes. I have yet to interview a jerk. Jonathan Thomas (04:06) Thanks. Ha Brendan (04:31) Everyone has been unfailingly nice and so excited to be there and just so game to just talk about whatever. And, ⁓ you know, the first two, I did it. I talked to them on the phone and I said, just transcribe it because I really just wasn't thinking about a podcast and James Scott, we won't be talking about his books today because he does World War II in the Pacific, but James Scott is a Pulitzer Prize nominee. He was the second person I talked to. And he said, when does this podcast come out? And I said, James, never. I will not do that. I got to edit and then people have to hear my stupid voice and see my stupid huge Irish head. And he said, no, need to do this. Like we need podcasts. You read the book. You understood it. Like you're going to have a lot of authors who are going to talk to you. And I did not believe him. And I talked to my best friend and I just said, yeah, this author said this. goes. I'll edit it. You do the interviews, I'll take care of the editing. And I said, okay, now this is becoming a real thing. He was a music major in college. I try not to compliment him because he's already obnoxious enough, but he's an absolute genius when it comes to just editing these things. And I said, all right, let's try it. We did it. And it's 220 something episodes ago. I don't know how it just happened. and no one's stopping me, so I guess I gotta keep going. Jonathan Thomas (05:58) I know the feeling. Yeah, I love interviewing authors about their books because they are more than happy to talk about their books. And that's my goal is I don't want to talk. I want to hear these authors talk. yeah, I'm always, I've been at this for a while as you have, and I'm always really surprised when somebody says, yeah, I'll be on your podcast. I'm like, that's great. I have to suppress the ⁓ imposter syndrome. am I really talking to this famous historian? Brendan (06:06) They are. Jonathan Thomas (06:28) on my little podcast. ⁓ Brendan (06:29) It's absolutely crazy. The people, I know you have the same thing. You get on with them and you're looking at them and you're like, I interviewed Marsha Clark from the OJ Simpson trial. If you told me that any way that I would one day be sitting there with Marsha Clark talking to her about the OJ Simpson trial and this new book she just wrote, I would have definitely called you a liar because that's just the weirdest scenario you can come up with. But you get on there and then you just... realize that these people are super excited. And that's not to say anything about, I'm sure you run into it too, our history community. Everybody wants you to win, whether it's other podcasters, whether it's your listeners, there's just something about this culture where my favorite thing is now and on social media, you're always going to get somebody who says something weird and who's ready to kind of fight with you over nothing. And what I found is I don't have to do anything, you know, the people that follow me are gonna kinda shut people down and say, hey, you wanna have a nice conversation and we can argue about something that's great, but if you're gonna be rude, just kinda get outta here. And it's great to be part of an environment, culture where everyone's rooting for you to win. It's awesome. Jonathan Thomas (07:44) It is, and it is. And like you said in your intro there, it never hurts to ask. The worst thing they can do is say yes. Brendan (07:51) Mm-hmm. I mean, my first season, my big swing was Dan Jones. He was the man and he's on the TV, he's writing books, he's everywhere. And I took a swing and I think I messaged him on Facebook, which anyone will tell you now you're not gonna get anybody on Facebook. And then as you know, I just finished my honeymoon where the last five days I was on a history of River Cruise with Dan Jones. Jonathan Thomas (08:14) No. Brendan (08:24) I've now sat with Dan, I've interviewed Dan, and I also have sat on a boat with Dan having drinks. ⁓ I've stood with Dan overlooking Omaha Beach in France. And that's absolutely insane. I wonder if I took drugs and that didn't actually happen. Nobody tell me, please. Jonathan Thomas (08:44) So, well, ⁓ I'm happy to report that at some point later in the year, I'm gonna be on your podcast. So I'm excited about doing a swap. tell our listeners about history, ⁓ sorry, tell our listeners about History Nerds united and where they can find it. Brendan (09:01) So you can find it everywhere. We're on YouTube, any podcast app, put it out there, Spotify, Apple, ⁓ Overcast, all of those. And it's real simple. I read books because I just love it so much. If you took all this away from me, I'd still be reading books. Nothing can stop me. And I read a book. I love it. And I say, I want to interview the author and just ask them about it. And I'll just talk to them about books. Generally speaking, what I try and go for is I want you to learn a little bit more about the book than you can from the jacket without kind of giving it all away. ⁓ The great thing with history is generally speaking, you already know how that book ends. So I don't have to worry too much about spoilers except for when I'm doing true crime, which happens. But you will hear me just ask them questions and let them go. I tell everybody I am the laziest podcaster because I'm not I'm not doing the research, I'm reading the book, I'm coming up with some questions and then I'm getting you the experts so they can tell you all about it. I just have to sit back and let the authors talk about something that they love so much they spent all that time writing a book about it and I just get to sit back and basically bask in their intelligence and glow. Jonathan Thomas (10:14) it. Well, let's get started. I see I've got my stack right here. I'm gonna Brendan (10:19) I got it, I got it. I can't tell you how excited I am about this. I ruin dinner parties because I want to do this all the time. Jonathan Thomas (10:26) So ⁓ I can't really get it in the frame. So I'm just gonna, it's gonna be adjacent to the frame here. ⁓ you go first. The first book on your list is Alfred the Great by Justin Pollard. Tell us why this book is awesome. Brendan (10:39) Okay, so I don't physically have that one. It's a little bit older. This is one of the first that really got me into British history. So Alfred the Great, Justin Pollard. If you look Justin up, he's actually a historical consultant for a lot of TV shows, The Tudors, Vikings. And he writes about Alfred the Great, who, you know, the only British monarch with the great after his name. And he really breaks it down to why Alfred is so important. Jonathan Thomas (10:53) Yeah, QA. Brendan (11:08) and how he's basically, when you look at the United States, George Washington without him, we would look completely different as a country. It's just, that's just when you look at it, England is the same way when it comes to Alfred because of the Vikings, because of the way he looked at it. And he is so important in so many different ways because he was a warrior, but also in love with education and making sure that education became part of it. How he set up the defense, he set up money, religion. He was truly a leader for all aspects of life back then. And what I also love about Pollard's book too is there is, and we've all seen the books that overstay their welcome. They're like 800 pages. And for History Nerds, I want to find books that I can hand to almost anyone, especially to somebody who thinks history is boring and they're going, I'm not going to read this. This is history. finding books that I can hand them and say, just give this a shot. This is a gateway drug to much bigger books. Pollard's book is just like that. It's, I think, about 300 pages. It's such a quick read and he just keeps it interesting. I absolutely love it. Jonathan Thomas (12:18) So that's a great first out of the gate recommendation there. And I forgot to mention that I will put links to every book in the show notes so that if you're inspired to read these books, you can easily get them. it does, the show notes, people don't know this, takes like an hour to make the show notes because you gotta make sure you link everything. Brendan (12:32) And I want everybody to know that takes forever. You are doing God's work. Thank you. Jonathan Thomas (12:45) You have to remember everything you said you were going to link to in the episode when you're editing it. And yeah, it takes a lot of work and people don't know that. So thank you for that. So my first book is a bit of a cheat because it's not technically a history book, but it's Bill Bryson's notes from a small Island. And to me, this is the British book I've read the most. I've read this multiple times and seen the long out of print TV show adaptation of it where he walked where he did the tour in the book followed by ITV cameras. And this is a definitive outsiders look at British culture. If you want to have any kind of conception of British culture, read this book. It's even though it's a bit of a time capsule because he wrote it in the early nineties, late eighties and a lot of his experiences were, you know, 50, 60 years ago, but. This is actually one of those books where it's beloved by British people ⁓ who they love Bill Bryson and how he affectionately views Britain. And my long-term goal is to be like Bill Bryson. So ⁓ I've actually met him. He's a very nice chap. He made it a book tour in the US a few years ago. If you want a more modern look at ⁓ Britain, ⁓ ⁓ The Road to Little Dribbling is his quasi-sequel to this, which came out a few years ago. ⁓ But ⁓ I cannot recommend this book more highly. It's a quick read too. You can read it in a couple afternoons. ⁓ It's easy to find. And if you want any conception of British culture, this book is it. Brendan (14:28) And that's a hard book to write, especially the travelogue type ones, because I find sometimes the author can't balance out between putting you in place somewhere and talking about themselves and getting caught in other stuff. So that's ones now on my list, my extensive list, Jonathan. You're killing me. Jonathan Thomas (14:32) Yeah. All right. And that's a challenge I have as a travel writer when I write my books about Britain is you have to balance me, boring me, and the interesting thing I'm doing. yeah, you're right. It is challenging. Bill Bryson does it great. I can only hope to be 10 % as good as him one day. Brendan (15:05) Okay, I am next. I'm going to jump to, and it's gonna be backwards. I'm sorry for those watching. The Six Loves of James the First. So, right, James was in Scotland, comes down to England, and ⁓ he is, how to describe him, he was a party animal. ⁓ That's what he was. my first thing is Gareth Russell, the author, it, Universally Beloved, when I had him on, I highly recommend the first two questions where I tell him how much everyone loves him. And as you know, British people hate that. Absolutely hate that. He said this is the most uncomfortable he's ever been, but he didn't hang up on me, which was nice. But Universally Beloved, and you know, not only is he just wonderful guy, he's amazing writer, and kind of looks at James and doesn't... doesn't put on the rose colored glasses, talks about how James ended up being the way he was because of how he grew up, the stresses, the trauma that he felt as a child growing up, when he did, knowing that he was gonna have a crown, then trying to work with Elizabeth to find out if he is going to take over England and then going to England where I think a lot of people will tell you Scotland and England are not exactly the same thing. they would say that they're very different. And I love this one because I always like it when the author does not focus entirely on the positive. I want the positive and the negative of everybody. I think it's more interesting and it's way easier for me to connect to somebody if you're getting the full picture of who they are. And I do know that if you sent me back in time, I'd want to hang out with James. We're going to have a good time. going to have a few drinks. I think he's going to have some good stories. Jonathan Thomas (16:58) All right, so my next one, and believe it or not, there's gonna be more than one book about Churchill on this stack. ⁓ So there are a thousand books about Churchill, and most of them are good. There's some bad ones. We won't talk about the bad ones. ⁓ And there's plenty of biographies. There's definitive biographies, there's multi-volume biographies. Some can feel a little dated. So if you wanna read a recent biography, then... Brendan (17:04) Yeah Jonathan Thomas (17:27) You cannot go wrong with Andrew Roberts is one volume Churchill biography. ⁓ I had the pleasure of hearing Andrew Roberts speak at the Churchill conference two years ago, and you will not find a man who knows more about Churchill than Andrew Roberts. And he's such a fantastic writer and such an engaging speaker that a one volume biography about Churchill was always going to be in his wheelhouse. And it was always going to be great. And I mean, it's, was a best seller for a reason. So it's, cannot recommend this more highly. It gives you an overview and it also doesn't shy away from talking about Churchill in the modern context and how we interpret him these days. And also putting to rest a lot of those stupid myths that keep going around about Churchill that drive us History Nerds insane. So, highly recommend it. Brendan (18:15) And as soon as you're done with that Churchill one, you go right on to Napoleon, which is also phenomenal. I know we're not supposed to talk about French people right now because we're doing British stuff, but just saying. Jonathan Thomas (18:25) I tell you what though, we're gonna get off topic here and I don't have a problem with that. When I was in France a few months ago, I visited Versailles and I believe you did as well. And I was walking around there and I was like, you know what? I need to read Andrew Roberts' book about the Napoleon Brendan (18:42) And it's just like the Churchill one, you get to the end of it, he's a lot like Sher now, you get to the end of it and you're like, okay, I got everything. I probably don't need another book about this particular person for little while. Jonathan Thomas (18:53) Yeah, so, all right, what's your next book? Brendan (18:56) Okay, Battle for the Island Kingdom, Dan Holloway. So I interviewed Dan and I just said it's 1000 to 1066. I don't need to tell everybody what happened in 1066, but I asked Don why this particular time period and he said it's really hard to write because there's people killing each other everywhere. You're going on both sides of the channel. And he said there is so much history. Jonathan Thomas (18:59) Ooh, okay. Brendan (19:25) And it's also just kind of crazy, like the most disgusting assassination of all times in this book. We're going to keep it PG for this episode, but if you read it, you'll find it. there's so much focus on 1066 and there's a lot that happens that sets up the events of 1066. He goes over this and it's a masterclass in knowing what characters you have to talk about and how to eliminate others. Because if you try to go over everybody, that was fighting for the island kingdom. It would just be absolutely insane. Nobody would be able to keep track. He somehow made this totally readable. Absolutely loved it. Jonathan Thomas (20:05) I actually have that in my library on my TBR. So you've you're moving it up the over the pile there. So all right. So my next book is another Churchill book, but this one was written by Churchill. It's My Early Life. And I actually I actually have a whole podcast talking about this with Gary Styles, who has recently written a book about this book, which is very meta. And if you Brendan (20:12) Yes! Jonathan Thomas (20:32) This book was written when Churchill was in his fifties and he was looking back and he needed money. So he's like, I'll, I'll, he'll string together basically a bunch of articles and stories. He's already written previously into it, into one narrative book. And it's the only autobiography that he wrote. And it's, only covers a short period of his life, but it's, it's such a phenomenal read. It's adventurous. It's fun. And you really get an insight into him as a person and how he developed, but you also get an insight. into how he saw himself in his 50s as he was writing it. And ⁓ it's just, a lot of fun to read. It's really breezy. You get it from the beginning, his parents from boarding school all the way until I believe he was elected to the parliament for the first time. So I highly recommend it. if you like the book, watch the movie. There's a movie called Young Winston, which is basically based on this entire book. There's some fun stories in there. Like he tells the story about his escape from the, from the prisoner of war camp during the bore wars. And that actually made him world famous before, before anything else made him famous. And, you know, a lot of people don't realize that when Churchill became prime minister and say Britain and world war two, that was like his third or fourth act in life. And we know him for that, but he was known for so many other things before that even happened. And if you want an insight into that, read this. Brendan (22:01) Jonathan, may I allow to take you off topic slightly? The darkest hour, what did you think of Jonathan Thomas (22:04) Yes. I thought it was a great movie. ⁓ I was skeptical of Gary Oldman as Churchill, but he did great. ⁓ There is some, I did take issue with some of the liberties they took. Yeah. Brendan (22:21) That's what I was going for. I wanted to see if you thought it too. We finished it. My wife's like, that was really good. I said, Gary Oldman was fantastic. And it made me feel things that I expected to feel. like there are certain points where you're just sitting there going, Churchill wouldn't have done that. The real Churchill wouldn't have done that. He was not that type of person. Jonathan Thomas (22:42) I believe you're talking about the scene on the London Underground. ⁓ Yeah, that seems to trip up a lot of us History Nerds. While he probably never would have done it, he was known to ride public transportation occasionally. While that scene is definitely apocryphal, I do think it's excellent at capturing the essence of Churchill that's important to the story the movie is telling. Was it real? Heck no. ⁓ Brendan (22:45) Yes! Uh-huh. You Jonathan Thomas (23:11) I mean, you put Churchill in a period tube carriage. there. I've toured abandoned tube stations and seen, I've seen the train that he, they film that on. So I'm always game for that kind of thing. And an addendum to that, ⁓ my perfect British World War II movie evenings now are a double feature, Darkest Hour and Dunkirk. if you do the Christopher Nolan Dunkirk, The Darkest Hour is a great chaser to that because they both are about the same period of time and it's great. So if you think of them in sequence, it's great. Brendan (23:50) Perfect. all right. So we mentioned him before. Henry V, Dan Jones. And I mean, I should mention too, everybody's book who, except for Justin Pollard, I get to interview everybody, every single author. And also I picked the ones that I knew I could say to people, a Dan Jones book, a Don Holloway book, whatever they're on, pick them up. If you go to Barnes & you can't find the one you're looking for. If they're names on it, get it. Dan Jones is... Jonathan Thomas (23:54) Okay. Brendan (24:16) Again, one of my favorites and it's Henry V. I don't know how much I have to go into Henry V. what's really interesting, Dan actually writes this in the present tense. And he talks about in the beginning that he wants to make it feel a bit more intimate. So instead of saying things happen, he talks about things as if they're happening right in front of you. And it's still nonfiction. He's not adding any fiction elements, but just writing it a bit differently. And it's one of his smaller books just because he got to focus on her number the fifth and this was the one he talked about he stayed away from writing because he wanted to feel like he was a good enough writer to take on Henry the fifth and you know, I know It's very interesting to me looking at somebody who Henry the fifth was an absolute warmonger but for his time period that's what people wanted him to be that was the expectation of a king and he's known as one of the best kings period done. But then of course you look at it with today's eyes and you'd say, ⁓ we'd hate it if somebody like this were here today. So you don't want to get those things mixed up, but it is, you know, flip that around as you're reading something. It's always kind of fun to just think that through. Jonathan Thomas (25:29) Okay. I'm don't mind me just adding every Dan Jones book to my push list. All right. So my next book is a more recent history book. It's a very English scandal by John Preston. ⁓ And I did not, I only got this book because everybody was talking about it when I was in Britain at one time and it was the best seller. And I was like, okay, I do love parliamentary intrigue and Brendan (25:33) ⁓ you have to have to Jonathan Thomas (25:58) So it's about an MP named Jeremy Thorpe in the 1960s and 70s who was a closeted homosexual. And ⁓ there's a wild story involving a murder plot, a dead dog and a scandal. And it's such a wild ride. Like I can't believe that it actually happened. when I, and he writes in a way that it almost, the book almost reads like fiction, even though it all happened. and everything's on public record. There was a trial, like there are transcripts, like some of these people are actually still alive. And it's a fascinating look at the establishment, the British establishment and in this time period. And that was made into a great drama starring Hugh Grant as Jeremy Thorpe. So it's it's it was fantastic. But read the book first, because ⁓ as any drama, it doesn't do it doesn't show everything in the drama. So ⁓ Brendan (26:46) Fantastic. It was fantastic. Jonathan Thomas (26:57) And, Brendan (26:57) I mean, we're in agreement, the book is always better. That's just a guarantee. You can't do anything about it. Jonathan Thomas (27:00) Yeah, it usually is. I mean, and John Preston, he he's written a ton of great books. So you can't go wrong with the John Preston book. He also did a great book about Robert Maxwell, father to a certain madam who is in prison right now. But it's it's a but again, he's great at dissecting the establishment and telling interesting stories. So. Brendan (27:26) Ugh, I'm gonna spend so much money on Amazon tonight. Jonathan Thomas (27:29) Tell your wife I'm sorry. Brendan (27:31) No, she's just as bad as I am. That's why we're really perfect together in a lot of ways. the fact that we're both book nerds and hoarders, we just keep buying bookshelves. We don't get rid of any of the books. ⁓ Joanne Paul Thomas More. Thomas More is to be one of the most interesting men in British history. Somebody who gets to the highest of highs. obviously the lowest of lows. And I always, I've always felt that there was just so much about him that you couldn't really capture in a book. And then of course I read Joanne's and there's been a lot of great books on Thomas More. I think this one kind of gets everything where she doesn't throw him under the bus. She doesn't, even though he is literally a saint, she doesn't make him the saint in the book and a lot of misnomers about him. that she just debunks. And when I interviewed her, she actually said something that I think might have caused a huge stir in the nerd community, that the hair shirt that Thomas Moore apparently people said he wore may not have existed. I told Joanna, I'm like, do you need me to cut that out? Because you may have people kicking down your door. She said, no, I'm going to go with it. ⁓ But I love this one. Maybe it's because I'm Catholic. and I just got a little bit of attachment to him, but I always find there's more to learn about him. And it also helps with a life like this. It helps when the subject is really funny. She has some excerpts in here where I'm like, this is still comedy gold, what he said hundreds of years ago. And I find that that always makes everything go down a little bit easier. Jonathan Thomas (29:24) All right, next for me is London, the biography by Peter Ackroyd. ⁓ This is the definitive history of London. If you have any questions or any curious about the broad scope of history, this book is it. And the history of London is the history of Britain. So, and as much as people outside of London hate to admit it, ⁓ London is critical to the history of Britain, the British Empire, and the world. And this book tells that story in an engaging and fun way. And it's also what I like to call a gateway drug to Peter Ackroyd, who has written a ton of great history books, including a five part series on the history of England itself. once you read this, you don't want to read all of his books. ⁓ It's, you know, it's a doorstopper, but you're going to learn so much that you're going to be challenging your cab drivers in London on their history knowledge. Brendan (30:25) Okay, this one, The Lost Memoir of Edward VIII. Jonathan Thomas (30:30) I interviewed her. She is amazing and the book is amazing. Brendan (30:32) Shane's the best, isn't she? Yeah, I didn't know what I was getting into. think we, I interviewed somebody and she reached out on Instagram and she goes, you want to read my book? I'm like, absolutely. Right. And as you saw with this book, it doesn't redeem him, but it really humanized him to me that, ⁓ you know, first of all, he was not a Nazi. ⁓ There's plenty of things you can say badly about him. He was not a Nazi. ⁓ But. Jonathan Thomas (31:02) No, he wasn't. Brendan (31:05) to look at it because what Jane does with this book is she has these long excerpts of documentation that was not available to a lot of other people. And what I loved is Jane has her own stuff in there that's great, but then she just lets Edward breathe a bit and talk a bit and you get to see how he's looking at things. And even as the reader, you don't need somebody to tell you that, hey, he's a bit diluted here. And here, you know what, even if He's looking at from his perspective, what's being done to him is just not right. And there are certain exits where you're like, you want to slap them. ⁓ But as I said before, I love it when you humanize somebody, right? They're not all good. They're not all bad. Give me all of it. Let me make my own decision. And I think James was a game changer for me for this time period, and especially for him to look and say, this is what this guy was about. He wasn't Satan incarnate who was also a Nazi. Jonathan Thomas (32:03) Yeah, and almost as interesting as the book itself is the story of how she got access to all the memoirs and these documents that nobody else seemed to even know about. And it's a great example of getting lost in archives and talking to the right people and making an amazing discovery. ⁓ Yeah, I agree with you. Book is fantastic. I highly recommend it. All right, next up for me is ⁓ Citizens of London by Lynn Olson. ⁓ And Lynn Olson has written many books about Britain that are fantastic. ⁓ This one is I'm a World War Two guy, also interwar guy. And so this kind of covers the the Americans who were living in London during the early days of World War Two and how they helped shape the narrative that ended up. getting America involved in the war and how it helped Churchill and how they broadcast from one end during the Blitz. it's just, it really paints an excellent and exciting, exciting is the wrong word, because it was a very dark time, but a great picture of this particular period of time and how you find Americans in the most interesting places at the most interesting times. We have a tendency to do that. Brendan (33:24) Lynn's another one, any book. I interviewed her for the one on the archaeologist and she's just, she's a great time, so knowledgeable lover. And that is probably definitely my favorite one of hers too. Okay, Tracy Borman, The Stolen Crown. So this is, ⁓ I have trouble sometimes when an author is so focused on one specific thing. Jonathan Thomas (33:33) Alright. Yeah. Brendan (33:49) except in this particular case. So she looks at the Elizabethan succession. And this book is entirely about Elizabeth and all the machinations she went through as far as who would succeed her. You know, keeping our good old buddy James, you know, on his toes, telling him maybe he will, maybe he won't, just all of the, for lack of a better term, manipulations that she was doing throughout her entire life to keep everyone guessing about what's going on. And Tracy actually, there is some new stuff in here. She didn't repurpose just things from other people. There is new stuff that she was able to get access to and it's in this book. ⁓ It's, you finish this book and I said in my review, I'm like the Elizabethan succession is now done. This book has been written. We don't need any more on this. She just absolutely nailed it. And Tracy's just another one. You get on the phone with some, or you know, on the... video with some of these authors and you're just, ⁓ I'm ready to be, I want to come off very professional and fancy all of this stuff and you talk to them for 10 seconds and it's like no they're ready to just talk about everything. I believe we called Henry VIII a few four-letter words in the middle of this. It was just absolutely fantastic but this she focuses, you're not gonna hear, she mentions the Spanish Armada for like three sentences. She stays laser focused on this and you just get everything and somehow it's still interesting all the way through. It's perfect. Jonathan Thomas (35:23) And she's everywhere on British TV. ⁓ Yeah, she often contributes to one of my favorite British TV shows, ⁓ Inside the Tower of London. It's a long ongoing series. ⁓ I love fly on the wall documentaries and at an historical site like that. And she's often on the show as an expert of exploring some interesting things. So yeah. Brendan (35:27) every Off of that, my favorite British show, going back, Dan Jones, has, I'm sure you've watched it, Secrets of Great British Castles. So there is not a new series coming out, but he is doing a book called Castles at the end of this year. Jonathan Thomas (35:53) Yeah. So there is not a new series coming out, but he is doing a book called Castles at the end of this year. Jonathan Thomas (36:03) Next up for me is Empireland. And I'm going to butcher his name. I think it's Sathnam Sanghera who is he's not a historian and he's a journalist. And this book. was one of the most controversial books released in the last 10 years because he deconstructs the popular myths and imagining imaginings about the British Empire. And reading this book is really eye opening. I had a lot of wrong ideas about the British Empire. And he also talks about how British children are even raised with incorrect mythical ideas of the British Empire. And so he kind of deconstructs all those things and builds up a new narrative of what the British Empire actually was and how it ended and how it still affects Britain to this day. And it's, it's fantastic. ⁓ He's a really engaging writer and he doesn't deserve all the social media abuse that he got for this book. I actually think he quit social media because he was just sick of it, but he also wrote a sequel. ⁓ that talks about, cause this is focused on how the empire affected and changed Britain itself. And then he wrote Empire World, which is about how the British empire affected places outside of Britain. So highly recommend this if you wanna get a more modern take on what the British empire was and wasn't, ⁓ it's excellent. Brendan (37:32) I need that. definitely need that. All right, since you got one that was, I'm going to switch up my. ⁓ my sequence here because you went with one that was a bit controversial. I got a brand new one that's been controversial, The Crown Silence by Brooke Newman. So it's the hidden history of the British monarchy and the slavery in the Americas. Brooke just came out with this and a lot of British publications ⁓ reacted quite badly to it, ⁓ which is very funny. They all kind of had... ⁓ The ones that came after her kind of had the same things. And it was very funny because every single one at some point pointed out that she was American. Some of them did it very blatantly, kind of to just say like, you can't write about this because you're not British. ⁓ But the book is phenomenal because it looks at something that I think it's almost kind of no duh when you hear it, but the crown, specifically the crown and the family who wore the crown. was making a lot of money off of slavery, personally, not just for the crowns coffers. And she looks at when that started, ⁓ what it looked like, how did they really take in all this money? And a lot of the detractors were talking about, she's demanding reparations and she's demanding this, which she doesn't do. I think there's a page about reparations where she just mentions that those come up and that's something that might be looked at. But this is about looking at all the documentation and realizing that the fingerprint of the people who wore the crown for all of this time, they're all over the slave trade and they were making money off it. Where, you know, there is some revisionist history where people would try and say, you know, they allowed it to happen, but they weren't actively involved. This book just shows you that there is plenty of evidence that they were intimately involved and It's very eye-opening. Always love books like that. And now we got our controversy books out. So that's good. Jonathan Thomas (39:34) Well, the next book I have may be a little controversial as well. ⁓ So it is called The Iron Lady by John Campbell. And this is to me the definitive one volume biography of Margaret Thatcher. And Margaret Thatcher is a very, still a very, very divisive figure in British discourse. ⁓ But it... Brendan (39:36) Yes! Jonathan Thomas (39:59) I look at her in a historical aspect because I'm only 42. So my life, most of my life has taken place after her. so, but in Britain, the wounds of Thatcher are still very raw. And while I consider myself a bit of a centrist to left-wing kind of person, I admire Margaret Thatcher quite a bit. there is a through line from Churchill to her. She grew up in post-World War II Britain. She grew up in the, conservative party at a time when it was going through massive changes. And she, whether Britain liked it or not, changed Britain in ways that she dragged them into the 20th century, the more modern late 20th century in ways that again are still controversial today, but needed to happen. We can, I'm not going to get into policy arguments on whether any of those things were good or bad, that's beside the point. What's fascinating is that as Britain's first woman prime minister, she changed Britain through sheer force of will and was in power for 11 years, which is an incredible achievement in Britain's parliamentary system. And this book does a great job of summarizing that whole life. ⁓ And I cannot recommend it more highly. So if you're gonna... If you're gonna read a one book biography of Churchill, chase it with this because I think they kind of are analogous to each other and you really need to understand Thatcher to understand why Britain is the way it is today, whether those are things you like or not, which is out of my wheelhouse. Brendan (41:45) Okay, next one, I don't physically have this one. I think my wife stole this one. There's a few of them that she stole I couldn't find before we got on. The Greatest Night by Thomas Asbridge. This is a biography of William Marshall, first Earl of Pembroke. ⁓ He's around the time of Henry II, Richard I, King John, Henry III. ⁓ He is, I think he is, when you look at British history, he's not controversial in that. He was, I think, the greatest knight. I think you can say that without. really, you know, ⁓ exaggerating it too much. It's Thomas Asbridge. He's just the best at getting really deep into something, but not making you feel like you're that deep into it. And you look at the life of this man who serves four kings, one of them who is probably the worst British king of all time, King John. And you see it's like a Hollywood script that he is loyal to the crown, regardless of whose wearing it and no matter what is going on, he lives a really long life and there is so much that goes on and you watch him playing politics but staying true to who he is and what he is given an oath for. It's another one of those true stories where you couldn't come up with the script for it. If you came up with a script for it, there are things in there that people would say that's ridiculous, you got to take that out and that's all true. and Thomas Asbridge, he has a book coming out on the Black Death in about a month, I think. So not entirely British history, but part of it is there. Gotta recommend that one too. Jonathan Thomas (43:22) Okay. The next book for me is a very formative book on my Anglophile journey. I read this when I was in college and it is called The Decline and Fall of the British Aristocracy by historian David Cannadine who has written a massive corpus of work about Britain and modern Britain and history. This book, so if you like Downton Abbey, this book explains why everything is happening in the show. ⁓ It is insanely detailed on explaining why the British aristocracy declined. It starts in the 1880s and goes on from there and why their power and economic power changed. And it's not just through hubris and stupid decisions. It's, it's, it's, there's a lot of historical forces that work there. And it's, ⁓ I read this as research for a novel I was writing when I was in college. And this book has always stuck with me. ⁓ And Candidine has written a ton of great history books, so I cannot recommend him more highly. Brendan (44:29) Okay, the eagle and the heart, Helen Castor. ⁓ The tragedy of Richard II and Henry IV. You're not supposed to have favorites. am on record, Helen Castor is one of my favorites. just talking about having drinks with Dan Jones, Helen Castor was also there. That's how crazy my life was. And Helen, just, ⁓ I hadn't actually heard of Helen. I interviewed Dan for Henry V. Jonathan Thomas (44:47) ⁓ love it. Brendan (44:57) And at the end of it, I said, who else do I need to read? goes, have you read Helen Castor? She taught me. She is the reason I am who I am. She taught me everything. Helen denies this. They have to fight it out. ⁓ So I immediately read The Eagle in the Heart and was just blown away by it. ⁓ You know, it's Richard the Second, Henry the Fourth. I'm sure a lot of people, Henry the Fourth became Henry the Fourth by taking out Richard the Second. And another book where she walks you through what everyone was probably thinking, what their actions were, why their actions happened, and humanizes both of them. Richard II, to me, is hard when you look at the facts to kind of redeem him, but you also have to look at Henry IV and understand how he ended up, where he ended up, and what he did, and the forces that were working on both of them. And then the huge part of this is after he was served the throne, The understanding that Helen gives you of, it's almost like we look back and we say, somebody took the crown. I guess that's a big deal. Helen breaks it down that goes, if you take out the king, you've made it open season on yourself because what you have said is the king was doing something wrong. I've now told everyone you're allowed to take down the king. you know, king is dead, long live the king. looking at those years after Henry IV takes the throne and realized that he, through his own actions, made himself a marked man. that's just the type of stuff that Helen is so good at. She is constantly teaching you, but you feel like you're just having a conversation within the book. And it's just a special way that she writes. Another person that just, if you see her name in a book, just get it. Trust me, you're going to be happy. Jonathan Thomas (46:48) So you're making my TBR longer. Stop it. I don't know, we got four more books to get through here. All right, so my next book is related to my previous book. And it's not a non-fiction, it's a fiction book. So I'm cheating a little bit, but it's my podcast. It's my podcast. So as Brideshead Revisited by Evil and Waugh, this... Brendan (46:50) And we're not even done yet, Jonathan. We got more to go. Little bit. Jonathan Thomas (47:18) is a great corollary to decline and fall of British aristocracy because this is a fictionalized account of declining aristocratic family in the interwar period, which is my favorite period of British history. And it's a phenomenal story of, of it's about Charles Ryder, who is not an aristocrat. He becomes friends at Oxford with an aristocrat, and then he kind of gets involved with the family in various ways. First as best friend to the son, and then he falls in love with the daughter. And he goes on adventures with the family and gets enmeshed. And it's all set against the backdrop of World War II and a great house. And I love great houses. And so it was made into a TV drama in the 1980s, which is one of the best British TV dramas ever made. The less said about the 2008 film adaptation, the better. But the book is phenomenal. And if you... read this book and love it and want to know more about aristocratic decline, well then read David K. Deed's book because you'll learn everything you want to know there. Brendan (48:18) All right, I'll try and do a quasi tie in with fiction. So ⁓ the invention of Charlotte Bronte by Graham Watson. ⁓ Long story short, because I have so much nonfiction and as we talked about, now I've got even more nonfiction I've got to read. So I don't get to fiction. I do talk smack when my wife says you don't read enough fiction. ⁓ But whatever you're reading, that's great. But here's some awesome stuff. But the most recent fiction book I read was Jane Eyre. ⁓ I was trying to impress a lady. Don't worry about it. We don't need to go into that part. But read Jane Eyre really like enjoyed it. I thought, you know, this is an older book. It's you know, there's romance and stuff and and read it and I said, this is why this is still kind of timeless that these everything that goes through. But it was really a gateway for me to how and I'm going to say this lovingly, absolutely weird. The Bronte family was just absolutely. And again, I say that as a weirdo myself. You know, if you have a If you have a history podcast, you're a nerd and a little bit weird in a great way, you know? And the Bronte family, have these people, they are so sheltered. You have multiple siblings who are going to write some of the best British literature of all time. And for Graham's book, he looks at it towards the end of Charlotte's life. So it's not like a full biography. It's almost a look at... the end of her life and then how her legacy begins as soon as her life ends. Graham is just kind of an expert on the Bronte family. I talked to him for about 90 minutes. I'm Graham would have gone six hours if we had enough time and I would have listened to it. But again, another situation where you read these books about this family and then you see how Wuthering Heights came out. You see how Jane Eyre came together. because there's way more autobiographical stuff in there than I think a lot of people realize. So one of reasons I love Bram's work. Jonathan Thomas (50:18) So the question is, have you seen the new Wuthering Heights? Brendan (50:22) I did not. People that I trust have told me, don't you dare. ⁓ Now, I don't know what Lady History Nerd has thought about that. We had some other movies. ⁓ We have not seen... ⁓ what's the one that just came out? Sci-fi one by the guy who did The Martian. Project Hail Mary. She's like, we got to see that before we see anything else. I agree. So ⁓ maybe it'll be on the list. I don't think so. Have you? Jonathan Thomas (50:39) Project Hail Mary. ⁓ First, Project Hail Mary is one of the best movies to come out in the last few years. So I don't watch the previews. Yeah, go in blind because you will be amazed. ⁓ Now, Wuthering Heights, ⁓ I actually talked about this ⁓ with another podcaster the other day. I did not enjoy it. And I really wanted to. Brendan (50:55) That's what everybody's saying, yeah. Jonathan Thomas (51:18) The movie looks beautiful ⁓ It's nice because a lot of movies have been most modern movies have been strict of their stripped of their texture the movie has texture some of the performances are great, but the Just the movie did not land for me. It was awful. I'm never gonna watch it again Brendan (51:20) That's what I've heard, yeah. Yeah, you're not alone. I've almost literally the same thing that like it looks amazing almost everything else falls apart. Jonathan Thomas (51:43) Mmm. If you want a good adaptation of Wuthering Heights, stick with the BBC adaptation from like 15 years ago, it's great. But anyway, my next book is, it's called The Last Wolf by Robert Winder, and it's The Hidden Springs of Englishness. I did not know what to expect from this book. So the concept is that ⁓ Britain has no wolves and... ⁓ because they hunted them to extinction. And the thesis of the book is that because Britain did that, it unleashed ⁓ the economic powerhouse of sheep farming and wool and the wool industry. And as a consequence of that led to so much that we know of as Britain, simply because there were no predators for wolves and sheep could graze and gamble on the hills. And he paints such a beautiful portrait of England and goes through the deep history and why there are no wolves. yeah, it's it's this book stuck with me. I read it I was like, I want to read it all over again. So I highly recommend this book. Brendan (53:04) Dang it, I'd seen that one before and I'm like, no, I don't need it. Now I need to. Jonathan Thomas (53:09) Sorry. Brendan (53:10) You're not sorry. I'm not sorry. It's fine. Next one. mean, I think if you're saying who are the best writers right now, I think his name has to come up. Patrick Radden-Keefe, London Falling. You might have heard his name from Empire of Pain, Say Nothing, is a couple other books. So London Falling, this is very recent. Jonathan Thomas (53:24) Hmm. Yeah. Brendan (53:37) True Crime book, ⁓ a young man, he goes off a balcony across from MI5, so it's caught on camera. And it looks like it was probably a suicide. And Patrick Radden Keefe says, what if it's not? Because there is some weird questions that need to be asked. I don't want to give too much away, but it's Patrick Radden Keefe. If you've read any of his books, I mean, I love Empire of Pain. Say Nothing is an all-timer. just everybody, even people who do not read history, somehow that one always ends up in their hands and when they read it they go, ⁓ my God, nonfiction could be this good. This is just another one of his. It's hard to explain to people because you finish Empire of Pain, you finish Say Nothing, ⁓ you have very strong feelings and you can voice them right away. London falling at the end of it makes you feel very uneasy for a lot of different reasons. It's true crime at the same time. It's almost a family drama and there are no easy answers to this. It's, again, I don't want to give away too much, just quite simply, it's Patrick, Ryan, and Keith. You have to read it. Everybody needs to read it. I'm sorry. I'm telling you what to do. You need to read it. Jonathan Thomas (54:54) Believe it not, I picked it up last week at my local Barnes and Noble. it's not yet. It's on my list. So I'm going to I'm going to move it up the pile now because it was a bit weird. They couldn't find the book because they mistakenly put it in the fiction section. I'm like, it is not it is not fiction. So. All right. All right. So my next one is quite a departure from that ⁓ is the Regency years by Robert Morrison. Brendan (54:58) Did you start yet? You have to email me as soon as you're done. We got to talk about this. Jonathan Thomas (55:24) And this is a single volume history on the Regency era. And the Regency era has never been hotter in discourse between Bridgerton and the latest Jane Austen TV adaptations and the forever popularity of anything Jane Austen related. This explains the world of Jane Austen. ⁓ And it talks about that 11 year period under the region. It explains why there was a Regency. explains why it has this particular, why it has its own cultural history and cultural memory. And it goes from beginning to end. And because it's only that short period of time, you know, the book is not that long. So you can easily get through it and learn all you really need to know. And it'll give you the context to enjoy the next time you watch anything Regency related. And if you read this book, I guarantee you when you next time you watch Bridge of Tenet will just make you mad because of everything they get wrong. Brendan (56:23) I give them, I was just talking to, ⁓ I forget who I was interviewing and we talking about, it was Adrian Goldsworthy. And we just talked about like certain stuff in Hollywood that drives you nuts. I find I have not sat and watched Bridgerton. I have been reading while Lady History Nerd has watched Bridgerton in the background. And for me, Bridgerton doesn't bother me because it's not really going for historical accuracy. It's just kind of, you know, fun drama and like throwing everything. Jonathan Thomas (56:47) Now. Brendan (56:52) I get more upset with something like The Patriot by Mel Gibson, which takes ridiculous liberties that don't need to be done because the real stuff is cool enough as is, but I'm not going to get on my Mel Gibson rant. That's not what we're here for. I'm sorry for even bringing it up. Jonathan Thomas (57:09) Well, you know, the way I look at it, I've actually only seen the first season at Bridgerton. I'm ⁓ not a huge fan. ⁓ It's fun. And I like to say you have to leave the historical accuracy at the door when you watch it and just think of it as a fantasy. Think of it as Lord of the Rings or as any other fantasy series. And then you're fine, because as long as you realize it's not real, then you're good. But yeah, that's don't even get me started. Brendan (57:37) And we're not judging anybody. If you love Bridger Timberlake, do it. We're happy for you. Do it. Jonathan Thomas (57:38) No, no, it's and it's a, and it's a great gateway to the to learning about the time period and to then learning the real things about it. And yeah, I actually, I don't have a copy. I do have a copy. I should probably plug this. ⁓ We published a guide to the world of Bridgerton, ⁓ which is basically, it's sort of like Robert Morrison's book where it kind of compress is all you need to know about the Regency Era to kind of understand Bridgerton better and also learn what they get wrong. yeah, it's available in Angotopia store. Brendan (58:15) Next one, I don't physically have it. I know my wife stole this one and she hid it somewhere. But for anybody who's watching the video, it is over Jonathan's shoulder. The Siege by Ben McIntyre. Right there. Yep, there it is. Perfect. Next to it, the other way. Got it, got it. There we go. Ben McIntyre, first of all, it comes to, Jonathan, I know you and I are on the same page on this one. If you're talking about World War II spies. Jonathan Thomas (58:31) There we go, there we go. Brendan (58:42) Everything is Ben McIntyre. He is the best, one of the nicest guys ever. The siege is a little bit different for him. So this is the Iranian embassy siege in London, 1980. So you hear Iranian embassy siege, you think of one thing, it's actually this one in 1980. And this is the one that makes the SAS famous. I think a lot of people don't realize the SAS wasn't, you know, just a byword or by acronym that everybody knew this particular siege. Jonathan Thomas (58:56) Yeah. Brendan (59:11) really put them in the public eye and just tells this masterfully like he builds up all of these characters and it's pretty funny like each chapter is about like you know it'll take you about 10 minutes to get through and then you get to the very end and the final chapter with all of the action takes you like an hour to get through and he just makes it all so readable you feel the tension like in your body as you're reading this book and he's just an absolute master. He's another one I just saw he has a new book coming out on a Cold War double spy, double agent. So that one's coming out in the next few months as well. again, Ben McIntyre, he seems to have a book coming out every six months to a year. I don't know how he does it and they're all good. Jonathan Thomas (59:58) Yeah, he's prolific. Yeah. Yeah. You've just moved this up my TBR. Brendan (1:00:03) you have to. I don't know which one you got to start with, but yeah. Jonathan Thomas (1:00:06) I think is this, I'm a really slow reader and I don't have a lot of time to read. So it's like, ⁓ yeah, I want to read all these books. Brendan (1:00:13) If only we could quit our day jobs. Jonathan Thomas (1:00:16) My next book is Churchill's Citadel by Catherine Carter. And she was actually on the podcast about 18 months ago. And one of my favorite British films is The Gathering Storm with Albert Finney playing Churchill. And it takes place during the wilderness years. And it tells the story of how Churchill was the lone voice against Nazi Germany when everyone thought he was ridiculous. Brendan (1:00:16) correct. Jonathan Thomas (1:00:38) And this book is kind of takes place around that. And it talks about how he used Chartwell as his vehicle, his beloved home in Kent as a vehicle to, ⁓ to basically stand up against Nazi Germany. And it talks about all the famous people who came to visit and it's, Catherine's a phenomenal writer and she's has the best job in history or she's the, she's the head of, of curation at Chartwell. ⁓ and I cannot recommend this book more highly. It's her first book and I cannot wait to read her next 10 books because she is a phenomenal writer and she, nobody knows. I don't think anybody can know Churchill more intimately than she does because she runs his house. Brendan (1:01:23) I gotta read that too. Ugh, this is killing me! Alright, Jonathan, I think we've reached the end of it. Do you think anybody sitting there saying they need more? Jonathan Thomas (1:01:31) I guess that's it then. So let me pull up my show notes and this will be edited out. Brendan (1:01:39) Cause for the record, think we can both keep going for like four or five hours. Jonathan Thomas (1:01:42) Yeah, well actually, we'll hear why don't we do something fun then? What's so that's the end of our of our picks for this. So what is on your TBR right now? What are you working your way through over the next few weeks? Brendan (1:01:57) Well listen, I have an Excel file so I can actually read them to you. I actually have one called Ike and Winston that's next up for me that just looks at their kind of personal relationship through beginning of World War II towards the end of World War II Eisenhower becomes president. So that one is next and I'll let you know I have a feeling you may want to read that one. Jonathan Thomas (1:02:23) Yeah. Brendan (1:02:23) I just have a feeling based upon your picks that this might be right up your alley. Jonathan Thomas (1:02:26) Well, I didn't put it on the pile because I actually don't have a copy of it because I listed it as an audiobook like 20 years ago. Franklin and Winston is one of my favorite books about World War II. And yeah, so I'd love to see Franklin and Ike. mean, yeah. Brendan (1:02:42) I'll let you know, I also have ⁓ just started one ⁓ on the Kindle called the Nord Stream Conspiracy, which blowing up the natural gas line from Russia to Germany. And this just happened a few years ago when I think right before the war in Ukraine started, I don't even remember it happening. I feel like the world is so crazy nowadays, there's always something happening. ⁓ So I started this book and I'm like, this all happened? don't remember. ⁓ this happening and so it's all new to me. ⁓ The few big ones, Catherine Grace Katz, she has Shadow Before the Flame ⁓ about, I believe it's the Hindenburg, but definitely about an airship disaster. She wrote ⁓ Daughters of Yalta a couple years ago while she was in law school. ⁓ No author has ever made me feel more lazy than Catherine Grace Katz, so very excited for her. And then Nathaniel Philbrick, one of the all-time best. He's got something coming up on the California Gold Rush. That's just, I mean, it's Nathaniel Philbrick you've got to read. And as we mentioned, Dan Jones with Castles and I'm forgetting who else. ⁓ and you know, The Black Death by Thomas Asbridge. It's phenomenal. Just really changes it. How about you? Jonathan Thomas (1:04:05) All right, well, you put me on the spot, but obviously The Siege and London Falling are moving faster up the list now. I'm currently reading ⁓ The Oxford Years by Melvin Bragg, which is it's I mean, he's old, so it's kind of a history book, but it's ⁓ Melvin Bragg is a very famous British TV cultural personality, and he's retired now. He did In Our Time, which is one of the best history radio shows ever made. I'm sure you've probably listened to it if you haven't. Brendan (1:04:11) Catch. Jonathan Thomas (1:04:34) You must, there's a thousand episodes to work through, get to work. ⁓ I know, listen to things. But anyway, he wrote a memoir. He actually wrote a memoir about growing up in the Lake District and then wrote a sequel about his time at Oxford. And I am an Oxford stan, like I love anything about Oxford. So I am enjoying the heck out of it as he talks about going to Oxford in the 1960s. It's great. And then I guess I'll just. Brendan (1:04:36) We already said we don't have enough time just to read. Jonathan Thomas (1:05:01) I brought over the books that that's the TBR right there. ⁓ This way up, if you follow ⁓ Jay Foreman and Mark Cooper Jones, the Map men on YouTube, they wrote a book. I love maps. So their book, I found it actually at Barnes and Noble 50 % off. So it's good deal. And then I just got this book about I love John Constable. And it's a artistic, elegiac look through ⁓ Year of constant through the year with through the constables work I looking forward to reading that and then this ⁓ I really this is probably my next read actually it's three weeks in July and This is about ⁓ the terrorist attacks on 7-7 in 2005 and it tells a narrative story of everything that happened then and the immediate aftermath ⁓ I listened to a podcast about it and I they've actually made a documentary about That's on the same subject with the participation of the authors documentary series is fantastic. I was like I gotta read the book So this is this is next ⁓ and then ⁓ The Traitor's Circle by Jonathan Friedland. I just came I didn't even know this has come out it is yeah, I I loved his book about the man who escaped from Auschwitz I are ⁓ Do I have him confused I think I have yeah the escape artists the the man ⁓ Brendan (1:06:14) fantastic. Fantastic. volunteer, I think, volunteer ring. the escape part is something in a different one, Jonathan Thomas (1:06:30) The Escape Artist was a phenomenal read, so I'm, yeah. Brendan (1:06:32) This is, it's different, but it's also really good. He was one of those, I finished that book, I desperately wanted to talk to him because Escape Artist is also phenomenal. But the way the book is, I wouldn't be able to talk to him about much because it's one of those books you are better off, as we were talking about, don't look it up, don't read anything, just start reading it and then let it wash over you. You're better off knowing nothing going into it. Jonathan Thomas (1:06:50) covers everything. And finally, A Shellshocked Nation by Alwyn Turner, Britain Between the Wars. Like I said, interwar period is my social interest. Alwyn Turner is a phenomenal cultural historian. He's written some great books about the history of 20th century Britain and 21st century Britain. ⁓ He's done a whole great tome on Thatcher. ⁓ But this is him going and doing the interwar years. So I cannot wait to read this because he's incisive. He's, it's great. And they have a great blog called The Line in the Unicorn where he talks about things. So that's what's coming up. Brendan (1:07:36) Perfection. Even more I gotta add to it. Jonathan Thomas (1:07:37) So sorry, not sorry. So ⁓ thinking of these books and all the books you've read, is there a history book that you wish somebody would write so you can read it? Brendan (1:07:54) there is. And ⁓ I talked to Helen Castor about it when we did an episode on Joan of Arc. I always say his name wrong. It's a very French name, Guy Deray, D-E-R-A-I-S. I am sure I just pronounced that badly. I am so sorry to any French person that's listening to this. I'm terrible pronouncing stuff. I apologize. But he was a compatriot with Joan of Arc. would later go on to be convicted of being one of the worst serial killers of all time, killed young boys. So if you think, of course, there's, you know, the serial killers are just somebody we constantly talk about. But I had said to Helen, I feel like no one has told his story, maybe because it's so horrific, but also it feels almost like this might be something if somebody dug into it that maybe he's gotten railroaded that somebody wanted this or somebody wanted that. And I can't find a historian who will do it. Maybe it won't sell. ⁓ That said, I'm going to, ⁓ hold on. I gotta lift this one up. I'm sorry. I need to think before I say it. Sorry, so I need to look that up because I just read Shelley Puhak, another one of my favorite authors. wrote The Dark Queens and she just did a book, The Blood Countess on Elizabeth Bathory, who is known as the worst female serial killer of all time. And she breaks it down. She went into all of this documentation of languages she couldn't read and it just goes into this woman's life and just points out that the person that everyone says she is, could not possibly be just from a mathematical perspective first of all, but also because there was plenty of reasons for people to want to make up the worst possible story about her to get her land, to get her power, to take her off the board. So Elizabeth Bathory is, you know, she is known as this the ultimate evil woman of history. And I don't know that Ghidorah at that If he's necessarily in that particular situation, he might have just been an absolute psychopath. But that connection to Joan of Arc and then whether or not he was railroaded or whether or not he really is this absolutely disgusting human being, I can't talk anybody into it, Jonathan. Maybe you should write it. No, I'm never. I will. am on record. I could not be an author. I don't know how. Jonathan Thomas (1:10:24) You should write it. Brendan (1:10:33) any of them do it. I don't know how you do it. It's the work you put into it and then the industry we don't even talk about like nonfiction. The industry you have to work that much harder to actually sell nonfiction for to get a publisher to even take the meeting and then sign off on something. If it's not World War II, if it's not Churchill, it's so hard to get these books. written, signed off on and all that stuff. I can't do it. You all are saints. So yeah, you got to do it. I'm telling everybody. Everybody who listens to podcast, need to email Jonathan. You need to tell him, this is it. This is his time to step up and take my really, really weird request. Jonathan Thomas (1:11:06) ⁓ Never, never. On a period of history I don't know anything about. ⁓ If I were to answer the same question, I would say I think Churchill's second term as prime minister is an under explored period in British history. ⁓ It's like a final act of a phenomenal career and it wasn't exactly full of success, but it was also happening at a time of great change for Britain. They covered it a little bit in the crown, ⁓ but. Brendan (1:11:18) Correct! Remember that. Jonathan Thomas (1:11:45) Yeah, it's something that I think deserves more exploration. Brendan (1:11:50) Real quick, John Liscow, were you worried about that or did you think he's going to nail it? Jonathan Thomas (1:11:52) Yeah. Yeah, when they cast him, I was like, what are you? I was like, well, my don't cast an American for this role. What? But he did great. I buy. Yeah, he did. He did fine. I am when they announced that he was going to be Dumbledore. I was like, OK, I think he could do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Brendan (1:11:57) He's too tall, that was my first thought. He earned it on The Crown, I think. I mean, I think a lot of us think Third Rock, well, a lot of us old people think about Third Rock from The Sun, and then you forget how unbelievably scary he was in Dexter, and you're like, yeah, that's right, he's a really good actor. Jonathan Thomas (1:12:29) Yeah, all right, so for my final question, because we have gone way over on time, I'm sorry listeners, ⁓ what interview are you most proud of on your podcast? And so we will put it at the top of the links in the show notes. Brendan (1:12:36) I'm sorry. Well, Jonathan, I have to say this is a terrible question that I always hoped I would never get because it's like choosing between your children, even though I only have one. But if I had two, I have a feeling this would be hard. ⁓ What I'd also say for people is ⁓ my one caveat is that I love jumping around time periods ⁓ and I'll even get into true crime. I'll get into some sociology stuff, things like that. Jonathan Thomas (1:12:54) Sususus. Brendan (1:13:10) So the first thing I would say if somebody asked me that question and they were looking for something I'd say, well, what are you into first of all, and kind of point you that way. But the two I would say is I'm going to cheat. I'm going to give you a true crime one and then kind of my overall. My true crime one, April Bellagio, raised by a serial killer. She is the daughter of Edward Wayne Edwards, who is a serial killer, known serial killer, and she turned him in. She wrote a book about being raised by him and she came on the podcast and she was amazing and nothing was off-limits we got to just talk about everything and it was absolutely crazy to just talk to somebody who had a father who at certain times could be a loving father just like any other and at the same time a serial killer ⁓ and another one of those situations I'm sitting there going I am not qualified to be here. I bought a microphone and this is something I shouldn't be allowed to be here, but she was amazing and so open. And the book is really, she doesn't try to overdo anything. She's just like, here's my story, here's how I felt. And it's absolutely brutal, but you just, I think I read it in one sitting because I just, could not stop. But overall, gun to my head. I have to say I'm going to go with the most listened to episode, is Helen Castor, who we already talked about, but she came back and we did her episode on Joan of Arc, which I mentioned. And ⁓ Helen's just so wonderful. And it's Joan of Arc who is timeless. Everybody knows who Joan of Arc is. Even if you're not a history person, you know who Joan of Arc is. And Helen's book on her, it was so enlightening and Talking to her about it was very funny. We got on and you know, I'm like, ⁓ you know, probably do 45 minutes an hour or something. And I said, you know, Helen, do you have any hard outs? She goes, yeah, I have something in three hours. I'm like, Helen, we're not going to go that long. We ended up going almost two hours. And I love it because it's Joan of Arc, which means, you know, for a lot of people, you already kind of know what we're talking about, but she's going to add so much more. The great thing about Helen that I kind of talk about, she's always She's one of those teachers who you don't know she's teaching. And it wasn't until I listened to it back that I could hear her say, well, Brendan, we need to remember. And I'm like, ⁓ that's because I said something stupid and I mixed something up. And Helen was fixing it without saying, Brendan, you're an idiot. you read this two weeks ago. Why can't you remember anything? And you also get to see how passionate she is. And I think you've talked to authors too. You forget that. Yes, it's a job for them, but also they get so passionate about it. And at the end of it, you hear Helen get emotional talking about this teenager who is burned at the stake, right? It's like she's a teenager and how scared she must have been even with all of her faith, with everything being tortured, all of this. And she makes her so human instead of an icon. And I think... That's the one, any episode I ever suggest, it will have nothing to do with me. It will completely have to do with my guests because they just all bring it and I just get to sit there and listen like the rest of you. that, I'm going to go with Helen Castor, St. John of Arc. If I get an email from any author saying they'll never speak to me again, I'm going to feel sad. I'm going to blame you though, Jonathan. Jonathan Thomas (1:16:52) All right, well, the link will be in the show notes. So what a pleasure this has been. I feel like we could have gone on for the two hours and barely scratched the surface. Thank you so much for joining us on the Angotopia podcast, Brendan. You can find history, you know, nerds united at history, nerds united dot com and wherever you get your podcasts. We'll link to it in show notes, of course, and we'll also put a full list of every book we mentioned today in the show notes so you can start building your reading list. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, like or comment. And if you like the Angle Topia podcast, please consider joining the Friends of Angle Topia Club, where you get early access to new episodes and connect with other Britain enthusiasts. So join us next time as we continue exploring the people, places and stories that make Britain's cultural heritage so endlessly fascinating to discover. Thank you, Brendan. Brendan (1:17:39) Jonathan, thank you so much. This was awesome. Jonathan Thomas (1:17:40) It was.