Jonathan Thomas (00:22)
Welcome to the Anglotopia Podcast, where we explore British history, travel, and culture. And I'm your host, Jonathan Thomas. Regular listeners will know that Winston Churchill is a subject this podcast returns to again and again, and with good reason, he's one of the most extraordinary people to have ever lived. And every time you look at him from a new angle, you find something new to talk about. And today we're looking at a dimension of Churchill that is less well known but deeply revealing.

Churchill the Painter. This summer, the Wallace Collection in London is presenting Winston Churchill the Painter, the first major retrospective of Churchill's art in more than 60 years, and the first substantial UK exhibition devoted to his paintings since his death in 1965. It brings together over 50 works, roughly half from private collections that are rarely accessible to the public, and traces the full arc of his artistic life from the tentative early canvases he made to

During the darkest moment of his first World War career, through the Mediterranean harbors and Moroccan cityscapes of his mature period, to the bold, late works of a man who found in painting one of the greatest solaces and disciplines of his life. My guest today is Dr. Lucy Davis, curator of paintings at the Wallace Collection and co-curator of the exhibition, who has also edited a richly illustrated catalog published by Philip Wilson Publishers, and we'll link to all this in the show notes.

She's been deep inside Churchill's artistic world with access to the Churchill Archive in Cambridge, the studio at Chartwell, and private collections on both sides of the Atlantic. There is no one better place to introduce us to Churchill the Painter. Dr. Davis, welcome to the Anglotopia Podcast.

Lucy Davis (01:59)
Thank you so much, Jonathan. Thank you for inviting me and for having me here today.

Jonathan Thomas (02:04)
Well, thank you for fitting this in. I know you guys have been really busy. The exhibition just opened. It's been a a massive success so far and I I know I'm personally looking forward to seeing it in August.

Alright, well my first question is ⁓ before we talk about Churchill, tell us a little bit about yourself. You're the curator of paintings at the Wallace Collection. How did you get there and and what drew you to this field?

Lucy Davis (02:26)
So ⁓ I have worked at the Collection for 15 years now. ⁓ Before I came to the Wallace, I held curatorial posts at the National Gallery and research post at the National Gallery of Art, Washington, DC, and also research posts in Italy and Germany. And I've always loved the Wallace Collection and ⁓ used to visit a lot while I was...

studying for my PhD at the Courtauld Institute where I was looking particularly at the Dutch and Flemish paintings but there's always more to discover here because the collection of paintings is so rich and then there's also all the wonderful furniture and decorative arts and armour so there's so much to to enjoy here.

Jonathan Thomas (03:09)
it's interesting. I I visited the National Gallery in Washington, DC a few years ago, and I was surprised at how many British works of art there were there. It was surprising. Lots of turners and constables.

Lucy Davis (03:18)
not sure if you this.

Jonathan Thomas (03:21)
The Wallace Collection is one of London's greatest yet least known treasures. ⁓ there's extraordinary works by Titian, Velasquez, Rubens, Van Dyck, Arms and Armour, and eighteenth century French decorative arts, all in a beautiful townhouse in Marleybone, which I hope I've said correctly. For American listeners who may not know it, can you describe what it's like to to walk through House?

Lucy Davis (03:39)
Absolutely.

I think it's ⁓ a really wonderful to come and it's almost like a refuge from the busyness of London. It's ⁓ a a family home. it was built as a family home and houses a world-class art collection, paintings, decorative arts, furniture, armour,

there's this wonderful sense of the kind of intimacy of a domestic space, a home, albeit a very opulent one with those wonderful ⁓ silk wall hangings with these beautiful paintings. And what's really special about it too is the fact that we can we hang our paintings with the fur above the furniture, so we can be quite playful with the hang. ⁓ We don't have to keep the same line of paint of the paintings, the same bottom line of paintings around the gallery.

and I think that really adds to this sort of spirit of a more private space, which is very rare for a national museum.

Jonathan Thomas (04:47)
Well, I can't wait to see it. I actually haven't been to the Wallace Collection. So this is this exhibition is a great excuse to see that and do some Churchill stuff. So I can't wait.

the connection between the Wallace Collection and Churchill goes back to the Second World War when in nineteen forty two the empty museum and its collection were evacuated to safety and then it hosted the Artists Aid Russia exhibition to raise fund for Clementine Churchill's Aid to Russia fund. Churchill's signature is in the archive of of the exhibition catalog. Can you tell us that story and how it kind of connects to why the Wallace Collection is the right home for this exhibition?

Lucy Davis (05:20)
Well, actually, you've hit your nail on... I mixed my metaphors there. Actually, Jonathan, you've really just summed it up beautifully. It was really the discovery of a signed exhibition catalogue.

Jonathan Thomas (05:23)
Ha ha ha.

Yeah.

Lucy Davis (05:37)
for the exhibition, Artists Aid Russia, that was signed by Winston Churchill himself, that really ⁓ inspired us to do the show and to explore actually the role of the Wallace Collection in the war as a venue for these Ministry for Information exhibitions. And this one.

particularly was very close to the Churchill's because it was to raise funds for Clementine Churchill's charity. So that's the main reason that we're holding it here. Also, we have a nice little link to ⁓

to Winston Churchill through our founders because Odette Pol Roger was born Odette Wallace as the great granddaughter of Sir Richard Wallace and she became great friends with Winston Churchill to the point that she reserved all of the 1928 vintage Pol Roger to him.

Jonathan Thomas (06:29)
Yep. And for those who don't know, that's his favorite champagne. So and if you go to any Churchill event at the International Churchill Conference, there's always Pulver J on tap. So

Lucy Davis (06:40)
And

you will see in the exhibition a quarter bottle of Pol Roger champagne, which is believed to be one of the last he drank shortly before his death in 1965.

Jonathan Thomas (06:50)
Interesting. So let's start at the beginning. Most most people know Churchill as a statement, an orator, and a and a and maybe a writer, which a l that's even that a lot of people don't know that he was he won the Nobel Prize in Literature. So but Churchill as the painter is less well known. So when and why did he start painting and how do you explain to someone who's never heard this part of the story?

Lucy Davis (07:14)
Well, it is a fascinating story of how he took up painting and it was really at the lowest point of his life. As you know, he was ⁓ first Lord of the Admiralty and was held responsible initially anyway for the catastrophic failure really of the Dardanelles and Gallipoli campaigns. He was devastated by the

the loss of life. in fact, his wife said, his wife Clementine said that, and I'm paraphrasing her, think that she said, you know, after the Dardanelles, I thought he was finished. I thought he would die of grief. So that's how strongly he felt this. ⁓

this failure. But unlike most people who might run away, you know, he wasn't the type to run away. So it happened that one weekend he was down at Ho Farm in Sussex and saw his sister-in-law Gwendolyn painting in watercolours. He did come from a very artistic family. I think it's important to remember that. And we do have quite a lot of evidence of him drawing as a child, which is illustrated beautifully in an essay by Alan Packwood in our catalogue.

But just going back to Ho Farm and this initial, he was immediately drawn in and asked if he could borrow the brush and picked it up himself. And Clementine was looking on and she was so relieved to see him engaged in something. You he talked about how he had all this unwanted leisure, you know, going from a really high-pressured executive job to suddenly watching the whole tragedy unfold, as he put it, to see him engaged, to see that spark lit up again.

She went rushing off to the local shop and bought oil paints and materials and from that moment on he was hooked. He was also quite unusually quite... ⁓

intimidated by the white, the blank canvas in front of him. And ⁓ he said he put on a ⁓ sort of dab of paint the size of a bean and sort of didn't know what to do next. And then Hazel Lavery, who was the wife of John Lavery and both of course a professional painter, but Hazel Lavery also a very, very gifted painter in her own right, came rushing up and said, no, take the big brush. And this is how you sort of put it on broad strokes. And from that moment on,

kind of given him the courage to really just go for it and enjoy it and that was the beginning of a lifelong passion.

Jonathan Thomas (09:49)
And so I mean did he take it up with gusto? Did he become obsessed with it? And and I mean, normally when Churchill wanted to learn something, he would talk to the experts in the field. So did he did he talk to other artists? And did how did he train himself as a as a painter?

Lucy Davis (10:04)
a great question. So he was an amateur painter, so he was never formally trained. ⁓ However, he did have the opportunity to train with three, at least three leading artists of the day. So as we said, the Laveries took him under their wing from the get-go ⁓ and John Lavery was his first mentor. So in 1915, ⁓ he...

He, Winston Churchill, spent a lot of time in Lavery's studio. He happened to be neighbours of the Lavery's at Cromwell Road.

the studio as a Cromwell place and he was having his portrait painted by Lavery, many, several portraits in that year. And so he starts painting side by side with Lavery. Lavery teaches him how to paint portraits. One of his most moving ⁓ paintings is his first self-portrait that he painted in 1915, age 40. He turns his uncompromising gaze on himself. He learns from Lavery how to paint from dark to light. So you have this

extraordinary illuminated figure holding his ⁓ paint palette decides not to paint his painting hand, maybe because he feels a little bit nervous about painting hands, which we know of course for artists is always tricky. And he from then on, and then he paints Lavery and Lavery loved the self portrait.

Churchill painted and actually exhibited it in 1919 at the Grafton galleries. So he was very encouraging of his, his protege. And I don't think he would have given him so much attention if he hadn't thought he had a lot of innate talent.

Jonathan Thomas (11:45)
Yeah, that was gonna be my next question. Did he did he have a natural talent at painting? Did he did he take did he take it to it like a fish and water?

Lucy Davis (11:52)
I think for sure ⁓ he seems to have, I think the paintings in the first gallery of the exhibition, which is called First Attempts of Painting, sets the scene for this really well. That you can see, he first starts painting in 1915 and you see two works that he produces in that year, the self-portrait, the portrait of Lavery ⁓ painting with a mirror behind him. So you see the reflection of Lavery in the mirror. So it's a very clever...

portrait, you know, very ambitious. So typical Churchill, he goes in with total ambition, total audacity, as he would say, ⁓ and produces these great works. Then shortly after this, he's out of political office, he resigns from ⁓ his position in ⁓ the cabinet.

and he goes to join the war effort in the trenches at Plukstirt, which was known as Plug Street by the troops. There he's painting without an artistic mentor at all. ⁓ He's very ⁓ keen to ⁓ raise the morale of the young soldiers in his battalion. He's commanding the 6th Battalion of the Royal Scots Fusiliers, but he does get a bit sort of...

unusually quiet and withdrawn and one of his young soldiers actually recalls how he sort of wouldn't really talk and he what's wrong and he said ⁓ I've been really struggling to paint the craters so he was painting the headquarters ⁓ of the battalion as it was progressively being shelled and devastated.

and with these enormous crater holes. And he said, I can't make the crater holes look like craters, they keep looking like mountains. And then we have a second painting in the exhibition where he suddenly, he's had this eureka moment and he starts painting in the highlights on the further rim of the crater. So he's worked out how to paint recession, but you he's painting there alone. He takes all his painting materials with him. There's a typical sort of...

way to relieve stress again during these very nerve-racking so-called slack periods when they were resting from the front line.

Jonathan Thomas (13:58)
Yeah, it's sort of an absurd image to think of of him on the he's literally on the front lines of the First World War. He's brought his painting set with him and he's got an easel setup painting while there's a war going on around. It's only Churchill.

Lucy Davis (14:11)
And they're

his only paintings of war. And we know that he really admired Pol Maas, for example, who he met in the trenches, who was a professional artist, because he said that he rallied the young troops, but he was also there painting ⁓ the horrors of war, but also the...

the capturing the beauty of the landscape. And there's an element of that in these paintings too, that spring's coming, even though in the midst of all this devastation. So they're very interesting paintings. But yes, he did, that was the way he, I think he dealt with these intensely stressful situations.

Jonathan Thomas (14:50)
Yeah, that was that that kind of leads into my next question, which is ⁓ Churchill himself described ⁓ his anxiety at this time at in visceral terms. He said it was like a sea beast fished up from the depths or a diver too suddenly hoisted my veins, threatened to burst from the fallen pressure. And then he found painting. So what what did painting give him that seemingly nothing else good that he wouldn't ⁓ a a normal man of the early twentieth century would enjoy?

Lucy Davis (15:17)
That is an amazing quote, I find that really powerful. ⁓ I think he says in Painting as a Pastime, so we're lucky enough to have his own first-hand account of why he took up painting. There we are. He said painting was a complete distraction. He said, know nothing which without exhausting the body more entirely absorbs the mind. And ⁓ I think does that

Jonathan Thomas (15:28)
Yeah, here's my here's my reprint from nineteen sixty five. I was just reading it this morning. Yeah.

Lucy Davis (15:45)
aspect of, you know, a release of tension, for sure, a way of focusing his what was clearly boundless energy on something. And I think it was also a revelation for him in the sense that it was about

a very intense kind of observation of nature. He loved nature, he loved animals, he loved, and he felt until he painted it was almost as though he hadn't really seen the world properly, if you know what I mean. ⁓ And he said that because he wanted everyone out, he wanted everyone who read his book, he wanted to spread the word to everybody that they too could benefit from painting ⁓ as a great resource.

Jonathan Thomas (16:29)
Yeah, and I like I was just reading this morning when I was preparing for this call that he said that because I I like to walk ⁓ is my kind of one of my past I'm trained to do Heydreams Wall, so I have to I have to do a lot of walking. And but when you walk, your your mind is not occupied. Walking is automatic. So your mind thinks about all everything. And he says that yeah, walking is not a good pastime for a person because you're still thinking of all your problems and anxieties and stress and depression and then

But painting is all encompassing. You you can literally think of nothing else than what you're doing on the canvas. And I I think that's that's really cool. I I have no artistic talent whatsoever. I wish I could paint. ⁓

Lucy Davis (17:12)
But I think again, he's saying everyone should and everyone should, nobody should feel ⁓ afraid to or daunted by it or, you know, feel that they have to live up to some kind of, he says, we don't have to aspire to masterpieces. It should be a joy ride in a paint box. Another lovely quote.

Jonathan Thomas (17:14)
Yeah.

Well and and that's that's that's a key thing I think people ⁓ probably should should get from this exhibition and and and his his career as a painter. He he didn't do this to get any notoriety as a painter. If and any in fact any notoriety he got he was kind of slightly embarrassed about. And i ⁓ it's that he just did it to did it to do it and and to do it well, but he didn't like aspire to be Van Gogh, you know.

Lucy Davis (17:57)
I think that's right. I think he was also very dedicated to painting. you know, those war paintings we we were talking about from ⁓ the trenches were the only paintings of war. He tended to paint places he loved. So Chartwell in England, Chartwell, Blenheim. And then he goes, he also talks about painting as a spurt of travel. So it takes him to the warmth and color of the Riviera and Morocco. So

I think he, I absolutely agree that he doesn't want people to take it too seriously, but on the other hand, he was very modest and very proud of his painting. So it was an interesting, it's both, you know, he exhibited anonymously.

⁓ He submitted a painting in 1925 to an amateur painting competition and won first prize, ⁓ although one of the judges wanted it to qualify it because he thought it must be by a professional painter. He did exhibit anonymously, which is absolutely, you know, in fitting with this idea that he was very modest about his paintings and was very reluctant to have exhibitions, ⁓ you know, given to him with his name attached.

That changed later.

Jonathan Thomas (19:13)
Yeah, because I know I actually

have I have the catalog from when he had a an exhibition at the Royal Academy, which is the that's the top of the of the of the of the field there. ⁓ so for the next five decades, ⁓ he painted and he painted almost over 500 canvases. And he painted when he was in England and France, Italy, Morocco, wherever he traveled. And so how do you square

Lucy Davis (19:19)
Yes, that's right.

Jonathan Thomas (19:42)
That kind of artistic output with a man who was simultaneously Chancellor of the Exchequer, Leader of the Opposition, Prime Minister, writing multi-volume histories that were over a million words. Where did he find the time to paint?

Lucy Davis (19:55)
This is a really good question that I ask myself all the time. He clearly had boundless energy, but I think also because he had such heavy responsibilities and had to make such difficult decisions all through his life, I think that painting was the resource for him. In other words, even the more busy he was, the more he needed the painting and it was the kind of...

Jonathan Thomas (19:58)
Yeah.

Lucy Davis (20:24)
flip side of the coin, if you like. He didn't paint during the Second World War, of course, because he was just too busy, with one exception. ⁓ But he did also often take his painting materials with him when he went on ⁓ visits as statesman. So, for example, after he chaired the Cairo Conference, he painted a view of Jerusalem.

He was, painting was such an integral part of his life. And I think that was one of the things that really hit me when I was researching the book, the catalogue, was that painting was central to his life. He loved to paint and it really shows in his paintings. And we think that that's actually what people will come away with, you know, they'll hopefully also be inspired to pick up a paintbrush.

Jonathan Thomas (21:12)
So let's let's talk about that one painting during World War Two. So ⁓ I I know, ⁓ and correct me if I'm wrong. So he did he he did not paint during World War Two because even to him this was this was such an important massive job that he could not have the leisure time to paint. I mean, he didn't even go to chartwall during World War Two. And and so he painted one painting.

Lucy Davis (21:34)
Yeah, it was locked up.

Jonathan Thomas (21:39)
which was in Morocco when he was there with Franklin Roosevelt. And I believe he gave it as a gift to Roosevelt, correct?

Lucy Davis (21:45)
It's a beautiful story. ⁓ They had traveled together to the Casablanca Conference and they had just spent two weeks there, I think. And Churchill said to Roosevelt at the end, he said, you cannot travel to Morocco without seeing the sunset over the Atlas Mountains. And he was a very persuasive man. He persuaded ⁓ Roosevelt to travel five hours to Marrakesh, the Red City, ⁓ to admire the view.

as the sun set over the Atlas Mountains and they observed the view from the Villa Taylor from a tower and we've got a lovely photo in the catalogue of them together looking at that view. And the next day Winston Churchill telegrammed Clementine and informed her that my friend has gone and he stayed on that day. He said the weather conditions were perfect and he painted that view.

with the intention of giving it to Roosevelt as a present and I think it shows their real, the real warmth of their friendship ⁓ actually ⁓ and of course it was also very symbolic because it was about the special relationship which was so much a part of Churchill's post-war, would be so much a part of Churchill's post-war agenda.

Jonathan Thomas (23:02)
And and and the the painting is in the exhibition, correct? Yeah.

Lucy Davis (23:05)
It is, it

is. And in fact, what's wonderful is that we have it facing the painting that he gave to President Eisenhower. He gave a similar view of Marrakesh to Truman, to President Truman, ⁓ who was very grateful for it. then he gave and hung it in White House, I believe. And then Eisenhower, along with

Mr. Joyce Hall, the founder of Hallmark Cards. Together they masterminded a tour across North America, which then went on to Australia and New Zealand of Churchill's paintings. And Mr. Hall had wanted to do this show from 1950 when he had had around 15 paintings of Churchill flown to Kansas City to be photographed for

used as greeting cards. So this was a really groundbreaking project and it was a big risk as well to fly all of Churchill's best paintings out to Kansas City. While he was at Kansas City he met with some museum curators who he invited to look at Churchill's paintings and they started thinking about this idea of a world tour. ⁓ But Churchill, when he approached Churchill, Churchill refused. This was in 1953, wouldn't didn't want to do it, was just

No. ⁓ But then ⁓ President Eisenhower wrote Churchill a wonderful letter which we reproduce in the catalogue.

Jonathan Thomas (24:36)
Yeah, yeah, go ahead, yes.

Lucy Davis (24:38)
A traveling exhibition of your paintings in the United States would not only attract a great deal of attention among all the people here interested in painting, but I am certain it would serve in a very definite way to strengthen the friendship between our two countries. I am not sure that you realize the tremendous affection that the American people feel for you. It is a very tangible part of the lives of most Americans. In great numbers, they would welcome the chance to see your paintings and in doing so, pay tribute to you.

would create a wave of goodwill across our country that would be both exciting and valuable. And Churchill obviously felt he just couldn't say no to this. and he only agreed in June 1957 to this show and the show then opened in January 1958. So you can only imagine they had to work really fast to pull this show together and it was a record-breaking success as you know.

Jonathan Thomas (25:15)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, it was a huge success. ⁓ and I and I'm curious, I don't know and forgive me if if you don't know the full provenance, but how did Brad Pitt end up owning that Morocco painting?

Lucy Davis (25:49)
I don't really know.

Jonathan Thomas (25:50)
⁓ Yeah. Who who owns it now? Does these do

they still own it?

Lucy Davis (25:55)
Although did you see that ⁓ it was sold at auction? ⁓ Yeah, in I forget which year, quite recently though for a record breaking sum. Yeah.

Jonathan Thomas (25:59)
okay.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Churchill paintings are very valuable.

let's talk about the the artists who shaped Churchill's style. ⁓ because he I I I'm forgive me, I'm not an expert on on art style, but I would I would I would kind of describe

Churchill's style of painting is very impressionistic. So did who so you said Lavery was a big inspiration because he painted a lot with him. Who else sort of inspired his style and and helped him find his visual voice?

Lucy Davis (26:34)
I agree that ⁓ it's really important when exploring Churchill's paintings to look at his mentors because he did work with them very, very closely. So first of all, we have John Lavery, who taught him how to paint portraits, but also how to paint on location, so on plan air. So we have a wonderful painting by Lavery showing Winston Churchill painting in Lady Padgett's garden on Kingston Hill, and they painted alongside each other. He also worked

with William Nicholson who is a fantastic artist, virtuoso painter, brilliant draftsman and he started painting with him in 1934 and ⁓ he said, Winston Churchill that is, said that William Nicholson was the artist from

Winston Churchill said that he had learned the most from William Nicholson. William Nicholson taught him how to paint still lifes and what they would do was paint side by side of Chartwell when it was raining, they'd bring objects inside and he taught Winston, who was a self-proclaimed lover of bright colours, he taught

church or restraint. to work in a limited tonal range and also how to

simplify a composition and I think the most beautiful example of that is Magnolia which is a painting that we have ⁓ in the second gallery of our exhibition where it's just a single stem of Magnolia with ⁓

the beautiful flower encircled by waxy leaves and it's in a lovely gilt vessel and framed against a wooden sort of wainscotting background. So it's very, very simple, but really powerful. And it's on the cover of the Royal Academy retrospective of 1959. But also they took inside, that's right, they took inside.

⁓ flowers from the garden and I really like that idea that with the still lifes they take

details that in a landscape would be tiny minor details and make them the centre, make them the subject of the composition. And we've brought together two paintings of the same subject, of the same vase of flowers by Nicholson and by Winston Churchill. And it's actually amazing to see how well the Churchill stands up next to Nicholson, who is regarded as one of the greatest painters of the 20th century. you'll see when you come to see the exhibition, it's a really, really nice pairing and we're really, really pleased to have this.

those two together. He then worked with Walter Sickett, actually a little earlier than Nicholson, so he starts working with him in around 1927. Sickett was, of course, very much a modernist. He taught Churchill all sorts of new working methods, such as working from photographs. Churchill loved modern technology, as you know, and he was always looking for new ways to explore and experiment.

Nick, sorry, sicker taught him how to ⁓ project a an image from ⁓ a slide through a projector onto a canvas. And this would be a squared up canvas. He'd square up in ⁓ pencil lines. So this would really circumvent the need for an under drawing. He would simply ⁓ trace around the outlines using a cool sort of gray blue paint. And then he'd build up.

the paint from there. So Sickert taught him this new way of painting. And one of the best examples, I think, of Sickert's influence in the show is the view of ⁓ the North Portrait Cranborne Manor, where he takes a very modern, it's not a a classical sort of framed composition. He takes this ⁓ oblique angle, oblique viewpoint of this ⁓ wonderful piece of architecture and, and it's very thinly painted and

which is very much reminiscent of Sickert. So in the show, we see we have a range of still life paintings which show this kind of restraining influence of Nicholson and then Sickert's ⁓ modernizing unusual views, unusual perspectives, ⁓ quite a different approach again and you see him adapting and trying these different methods out.

And then of course, as you said, he loved Monet. We've got a wonderful painting in the show of the goldfish pool at Chartwell, which he built himself. He did lots of landscaping. That was another work of art, was the grounds of Chartwell. And he paints the fish. They're sort of in a very gestural way in the pool and these wonderful reflections and lots of different shades of green, which I've been told is, you know.

Jonathan Thomas (31:11)
Yeah. Yeah.

Lucy Davis (31:26)
⁓ Sometimes amateurs tend to just use a single shade of green, but he uses this very textured green. And this is very reminiscent of Monet's Waterlilies at Giverny. So he clearly was a great admirer of the Impressionists, also the post-Impressionists, Cézanne. He spoke of his frustration ⁓ painting at Cannes Harbour. He was trying to paint the...

reflections in the water like what he called a tessellated pavement of dabs and lozenges of bright colour. he at times also found painting quite frustrating I think because he set himself these very high standards and these very particular sort of artistic or scientific kind of challenges if that's the right term or ⁓ goals that he set himself.

Jonathan Thomas (32:20)
let's talk about the exhibition itself. ⁓ it's organized chronologically through six sections. Give us walk us through the the experience people can expect to see when they come to the to the exhibition from beginning to end.

Lucy Davis (32:33)
Yeah, so we've brought together just under 60 paintings by Winston Churchill, so it is a major retrospective, in fact the first since his death, and so the exhibition opens with first attempts at painting. this is, the exhibition is largely thematic and chronological, so the first gallery explores his, why he came to paint,

his first paintings with ⁓ Lavery and Nicholson, and of course the Plug Street paintings. And this is a fairly sombre gallery, ⁓ in a sense, about these early years. And we bring together, because we really wanted to evoke the presence of Churchill in the galleries. You've got a wonderful photo of him in his studio at Chartwell. And we've brought together a really...

lovely collection of his painting materials, his painting glasses which are unknown to us, his paint brushes, his paints, the last bottle of Pol Reje he drank as mentioned, his painting glasses, the hallmark cards, you know, that were such an important part of his story as well in making his work known throughout the world.

Then we move into a gallery which is all about life and hope. It's ⁓ Churchill Paints Chartwell in England. So here we bring together the views of Chartwell. Of course, because Chartwell was his home, he was very proud of it. It was his, again, a kind of retreat from the pressures of London. They bought it for these wonderful views. But he also, lived there throughout the year, so he knew it in... ⁓

in the changing seasons. So the first painting is the winter sunshine at Chartwell in the snow and then there's a wonderful springtime view of the the orchard at Chartwell.

And ⁓ then the other place which of course of great significance to him was Blenheim where he was born.

by accident, was born a month early at Blenheim. And we have three wonderful paintings. We have a view of the Enfilade of the State Rooms at Blenheim, which really, I think, conveys Churchill's sense of the momentous, know, it's a very theatrical kind of painting on loan to us from Hallmark. Then we have a view of the State Rooms, which really focuses on

the one of the victory tapestries that were commissioned by the first Duke of Marlborough, his hero, you know, to celebrate his victories that brought him all these honours and indeed the wealth that enabled him to build the great palace of Blenheim. And Churchill was just about to enter his wilderness years when he painted this. And of course, he devoted a lot of time in that decade to a full volume.

biography of the first Eugen Morgbrø, which took him to all his battle sites around Europe and so on. So he was immensely proud of ⁓ his forebear. And then we move into a section devoted to still lifes, where again, we explore this relationship with Nicholson and ⁓ there are some wonderful paintings of the houses and gardens of his friends who he loved to visit and he would often thank you, give them a thank you present of a painting. And this would, of course, become

a bigger, more symbolic gesture, as we said, when...

He gives his paintings as gifts to the American presidents. We then enter ⁓ another very colorful gallery, which is devoted to light atmosphere reflections. So here we explore how Churchill saw paintings as spur to travel, as he called it. He traveled to the Riviera, staying with his friends in their wonderful villas. He hated the British winters. He hated the gray skies. He was drawn to warmth and color. So he just loved, he would spend

Christmas and January ⁓ in the south of France. We've got some wonderful paintings of reflections. So, Saint-Georges Motel, actually in the north of France, but with ⁓ its reflection in the water. ⁓ The painting where he famously made the gardener's ⁓ row back and forth across the moat to create ripples so he could try a different effect in the water.

And also La Dragonnière, which was a wonderful painting, ⁓ I think, inspired by Van Gogh. A painting that Picasso himself ⁓ said when he saw it. I'm paraphrasing. He said ⁓ he would have been a good professional painter if he didn't have something else to do. It's just really nice. ⁓ then also, of course, a real highlight of this ⁓ gallery is The Beach at Wollmer, on loan to us from ⁓

America's National Churchill Museum. And this is obviously an incredible painting. This painting is fascinating. The question is, you know, is it simply a memento of a family holiday, ⁓ the Churchill family bathing? You can see Winston on the far right in his long swimming trunks, sort of looking out to sea. ⁓

But the presence of the cannon in the painting makes us, gives it a sense of foreboding, you know, is this actually about the future of Europe? and interestingly, after the war, General Ismay chose this painting from Churchill's stock at Chartwell and said, again, I'm paraphrasing, but this is Winston keeping guard while England plays. And this was painted in 1938, so.

really it does feel like a premonition of war. And of course, Churchill at the time was warning publicly of the dangers posed by Nazi Germany. then, oh, sorry, shall I? Oh, I'm so sorry, nearly there. The gallery after that explores Morocco. He went to Morocco on six occasions, five or six occasions, and loved again the color, the contrast between the...

Jonathan Thomas (38:19)
So ⁓ no, no go on go on. Yeah, sorry.

Lucy Davis (38:36)
the arid desert, the red city, the Atlas Mountains behind, the lush vegetation. ⁓ And we have examples, panoramic views of the city, views from the streets of the gates, the mosques. So this is a really rich and beautiful ⁓ group of paintings, again, with the highlights of the Catubia Mosque, which you go to Roosevelt, and the Eureka Valley. He loved to go on picnics in the Eureka Valley.

⁓ and that was the present for Eisenhower. And then we end the exhibition really exploring how...

Churchill's paintings were recognised publicly and celebrated. And this was really after the war when he was no longer Prime Minister. He was leader of the opposition. approached by the director of the Royal Academy to submit paintings to the Summer Exhibition. And again, he was very shy about it. He said he would only do so if he could submit anonymously in the outsiders category under the pseudonym David Winter.

which he did, they were accepted. And then the following year, ⁓ he was given this wonderful honorary title, honorary academician, extraordinary. And this was in ⁓ recognition of his services to the nation ⁓ and also in recognition of his accomplishments as a painter. And he must have been very, very proud.

Jonathan Thomas (40:06)
I'm sure he was. so let's ⁓ I want to talk a little bit more about Chartwell. ⁓ so Chartwell was Churchill's great love. He famously said a day away from Chartwell was a day wasted. ⁓ it was his home for 50 years. That's where his painting studio was, his garden, his retreat. And it inspired more paintings than any of his other body of work. So, what is it about Chartwell?

Lucy Davis (40:12)
Hmm.

Jonathan Thomas (40:32)
that was so inspirational. Was it his idea of an ideal English landscape?

Lucy Davis (40:37)
I think that's right. mean, if you've been to Chartwell, you'll see that the view is stunning and they bought the house primarily for the view. They knew they had a lot of work to do on the manor house itself. The view is unchanged today. I mean, it's unspoiled. It's just looks out over the wield, sweeping panorama. He loved it, I think, because...

exactly that it was his home, it was his, it was a kind of country retreat, it was where he went to relax, it was where, you he was a real family man, where all the family, the grandchildren would gather, but he also kind of built it in many ways, you he was really involved in all the architectural plans, the remodeling of the house, but particularly the landscaping of the garden, the goldfish pools he built himself, the walls he built himself, and he, ⁓

I think it really represented to him ⁓ somewhere that was just about pleasure and where he could paint and he loved painting. So it was sort of, it all came together really at Charwell.

Jonathan Thomas (41:45)
So one of the things I'm always really interested in is is how people do their jobs. ⁓ how how did you go about ⁓ gathering deciding and then gathering all these paintings from all over the world? Because this this exhibition brings paintings that either have been in private collections or haven't been exhibited before or are in far corners of the world. So how does it how does it all come together and and how long does it take?

Lucy Davis (42:10)
Well, this is a really great question and a in a really good aspect, I think, of the show to stress that this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to see these paintings because as you've just said so well, you know, the majority of them are from private collections, or they're in ⁓ the few that are in ⁓ public collections are not actually at particularly accessible to the public. So

With the exception of the paintings from Chartwell and the National Trust, for which we are hugely grateful. You know, these paintings have never been seen before by most people. So the exhibition, the idea for the exhibition was our director, Xavier Bray.

And ⁓ it was an idea he had 20 years ago when he went to Dallas and saw the Reeves collection at the Dallas Museum of Art. ⁓ and he said the idea was rekindled ⁓ for him in 2020 during COVID when Chartwell reopened in between lockdowns. So it was a visit to Chartwell again that sort of prompted him. And so then loan negotiations began in 2022 and ⁓

In 2023, he invited me to co-curate ⁓ the show with him, and I started by researching the catalogue. And by then we were already in the process of securing the loans, ⁓ which, as you said, are mainly from private collections in this country and in the United States.

Jonathan Thomas (43:34)
So talk about let's talk about the catalog. ⁓ because it's a it's gonna be a beautiful book. I can't wait to get my copy. ⁓ it's not just ⁓ it's not just a listing of the paintings. What else is in the catalog?

Lucy Davis (43:47)
so the catalogue has six contextual essays by leading Churchill scholars. So ⁓ we have ⁓ an account of the Artis Aid Russia exhibition, which is actually the subject of a display, which I'd really urge your listeners to to go and see,

⁓ one is by ⁓ our director of collections and research, Dr. Alison Smith, and she is the curator of our current display on ⁓ the Artists Aid Russia exhibition and the history of Hartford House during the war. It's called the Wallace Collection at War, and I really do recommend it to your ⁓ listeners, it's open until the end of October.

And she explains the story ⁓ more fully in the exhibition catalogue. We also have an essay ⁓ by Catherine Carter on ⁓ the importance of Chartwell for Churchill by Pol Rafferty, who explores Churchill as a painter, ⁓ because of course Pol Rafferty is himself a professional painter and artist. ⁓

We have an essay on Churchill's Artistic Mentors by Barry Phipps at Cambridge, ⁓ and an essay on ⁓ Churchill's use of paintings as a form of soft power by Andrew Roberts, and ⁓ an essay by Alan Packwood, which actually really was the first essay in the catalogue which really sets the scene for ⁓ Churchill as a painter.

He beautifully shows how Churchill was a very visual person, which you can see obviously in his great wartime speeches, uses all this wonderful visual metaphor. And ⁓ Alan just beautifully shows how through letters with wonderful drawings in them, how Churchill was a very, as a child and as a young adult, he was very much an artist. ⁓ From, you know, an innate artist.

And then I researched the catalogue of the paintings, which was very exciting. I was building on the ⁓ groundbreaking work already done and published in the catalogue resume of Churchill's paintings by David Coombs and Minnie Churchill. ⁓ And I was also worked very closely with the ⁓

Churchill Archives at Cambridge. I had access to those archives. So I was also able to find some new letters which helped confirm dates of paintings which we maybe didn't know before, and also just details that really ⁓ connected the painting to ⁓ paintings to ⁓ Winston Churchill's life. So for example, the fact that ⁓

Branxom Dean, which is appears to just be a simple landscape painting, was actually the scene of a near-fatal accident ⁓ when Churchill was a teenager, when he fell off a chine. He fell off a bridge spanning a chine.

So in the catalogue, ⁓ we've got lots of new research on how the paintings kind of fitted into Churchill's own life, how central painting was to Churchill's life, and also in a putting them into an art historical context with his mentors and ⁓ and also a political context, of course.

Jonathan Thomas (47:11)
I need the book. that sounds that's a that's a great

lineup of essays and and and eminent Churchillians. I've I heard some of them speak at the ICS conference. I think it was in 2024. ⁓ Paul Rafferty

on Churchill's paintings of the south of France. And he he had a very nerdy obsession with basically finding everywhere that Churchill painted and and basically photographing it and documenting it. So yeah, looking forward to

Lucy Davis (47:38)
Well they've I must say

they've all been fantastic colleagues, ⁓ very, very supportive and helpful and generous with their knowledge. And ⁓ in fact we were able to publish some of ⁓ Paul's new research. So for example, he re he

Re-identified the location of one of the paintings, which was formerly thought to be Isha Place. He identified as Warren House on ⁓ Kingston Hill. So we now have two paintings in the exhibition that were painted at Warren House. So, and we were able to, of course, to draw on

Paul's really extensive knowledge of the all the different sites that he painted at on the Riviera. So it's been a real, really collaborative project actually. And with we were hugely grateful to the Churchill family for all their support in helping us throughout the exhibition, from the initial selection of works, locating the paintings, and to you know to its final sort of iteration as the exhibition that's just opened.

Jonathan Thomas (48:36)
Yeah, that was actually gonna go be my next question is is how was the Churchill family involved in this? And I mean are some of the paintings that were from their personal collection?

Lucy Davis (48:45)
So the the sorry, so the Churchill family have been enormously supportive throughout the the show from the very beginning. We couldn't have done the show without their help. And they ⁓ yes, so they've helped us absolutely with really all aspects and also sharing ⁓ their ⁓ knowledge of ⁓

you know, their great their great forebear as well. So they've they've they've ⁓ enriched the exhibition in so many ways.

Jonathan Thomas (49:16)
So for for our primarily ⁓ American listeners, what ⁓ what is the single most important thing that should get an American church you line on an airplane to go see this exhibition this summer?

Lucy Davis (49:28)
Well, I think the whole exhibition will be a revelation to ⁓ to your visitors, to our visitors, ⁓ as it it has been for me, because I knew relatively little about Winston Churchill as a painter for exactly the reasons that we've talked about. His paintings are not really that accessible. so I think it will be a huge revelation. I think people will discover the how the paintings represent.

The many aspects of this, his very complex personality, the range of subjects that he painted, and also really fundamentally his zest for life. You know, he loved to paint, and I think that's really communicated through the works we've chosen in the show. And I think he would like to see us leave the leaving the exhibition with smiles on our faces and with an urge to pick up a paintbrush.

Jonathan Thomas (50:22)
All right, so now it's time for my rapid fire Churchill questions I give to all my Churchill guests. So are you ready? All right, so what's your favorite Churchill book?

Lucy Davis (50:30)
Yes, I'm ready.

Has to be painting as a pastime because it's by Winston Churchill, because it is really pithy, it's you know short to the point. It basically explains why he took up painting all the different ⁓

benefits that he has enjoyed as a result and why you should paint as well. So and I think you can see why he's the second most quoted ⁓ writer in the English language, ⁓ as I've heard, ⁓ just by reading that book. It's so witty and and lighthearted.

Jonathan Thomas (51:08)
Yeah, I recommend everybody get a copy and I'll put a link in the show notes. It's pr it's in print pretty much all the time. And it e and then the back has an a selection of his paint of his favorite paintings. So it's it's worth having. so what's your favorite film or TV portrayal of Churchill?

Lucy Davis (51:25)
Darkest Hour, with the fantastic performance by Sir Gary Oldman, who speaks as Churchill on our audio guide.

Jonathan Thomas (51:33)
What's your favorite Churchill quote?

Lucy Davis (51:35)
I think it's this just to paint is great fun. The colours are lovely to look at and delicious to squeeze out. And for me that just again captures that just wonderful enthusiasm that he has for painting.

Jonathan Thomas (51:49)
All right, now I'm gonna ask you to pick one of your favorite children. Which is your favorite painting in the exhibition?

Lucy Davis (51:54)
⁓

It does feel like that by now, yes. ⁓ I would have to say the goldfish pool at Chartwell. ⁓ although of course there are many highlights, so it is it is quite difficult to choose. But ⁓ I love this painting because I think you could just spend hours in front of it. It's ⁓ he so beautifully captures the

Jonathan Thomas (51:57)
Okay.

Lucy Davis (52:16)
Reflections of the foliage, this dense green foliage around the pool. But what I really love is a particular detail that doesn't really come out in photography, even the best photography, which is the ripple created by the fish on the surface that he's painted in this sort of mauve grey colour. And it's just such a lovely finishing touch to the picture, and I think really summarizes that playful, witty side of his personality.

Jonathan Thomas (52:44)
that is one of my favorites as well. ⁓ I if you go to chart well, they still have the chair there and the goldfish are still in the pond. So you can you can have your own little

Lucy Davis (52:52)
Yes.

Jonathan Thomas (52:54)
⁓ well, what a wonderful conversation this was. Thank you so much for joining us on the Anglotopia podcast, Lucy. Winston Churchill, the painter, is at the Wallace Collection in London until November 29th. If you're in London this year, this should be at the top of your list. Book your tickets in advance because it will sell out on on a lot of days.

So be sure to plan ahead and book in advance. Like I've already booked my tickets two months in advance because I I'm a planner. ⁓ if you enjoy we'll link to the Wallace Collection, the exhibition, and the catalog in the show notes and everything we talked about. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, like, or comment. And if you like the Anglotopia podcast, please consider joining the Friends of Anglotopia Club, where you can get early access to new episodes and connect with other Britain enthusiasts. So join us next time.

As we continue exploring the people, places, and stories that make Britain's cultural heritage so endlessly fascinating to discover. Thank you, Lucy.

Lucy Davis (53:50)
Thank you, Jonathan.