Jonathan Thomas (00:00) Welcome back to the Anglotopia podcast where we explore British history travel and culture I'm your host Jonathan Thomas and today I'm thrilled to welcome back photographer and adventurer Quintin Lake last year We spoke about his extraordinary five-year 11,000 kilometer journey around the entire coastline of Britain Documented in his stunning book The Perimeter which I highly recommend everybody pick up because the book is beautiful and it's available in the US now Quinton has also walked all 16 of Britain's national trails. And today we're going to focus on one that's particularly close to my heart, the Hadrian's Wall National Trail, because I'm going to be walking it in August. The Hadrian's Wall path stretches 84 miles across Northern England from Wallsend near Newcastle in the East to Bowness on Solway and Cumbria on the West coast of England. It follows the line of the UNESCO heritage site built by Roman Emperor Hadrian and AD 122, one of the most impressive Roman monuments anywhere in the world still standing. This conversation is especially personal for me because later this summer, I'll be walking the Hadrian's Wall path myself, sponsored by Macs Adventure. So not only will we explore Quintin's experience on the trail, but I'll also be picking his brain for advice on my upcoming adventure. Welcome back to the podcast, Quintin Quintin (01:21) Great to be back here Jonathan. Jonathan Thomas (01:22) So ⁓ set the scene for me. So I did read your article that you actually wrote for The Guardian about your walk-al, link it in the show notes. This is actually the last national trail you did. So. Quintin (01:35) That's right, yes, I don't know why it took me so long because it's probably the best or one of the best in my opinion, yeah, yeah. Jonathan Thomas (01:42) Well, and I would argue it's also one of the most accessible because it's only 84 miles. I think it's one of the shortest. So if anybody wants to do a national trail like this is the one to do, I think. Quintin (01:48) Yes. Yes, yeah, I agree, I agree. Jonathan Thomas (01:55) So when we last spoke, you were just beginning the book tour for Perimeter. How did everything go? Quintin (02:02) thanks. It's been, I've been doing a lot of ⁓ book tours, book events, about 14. I'm still going. I've got another next week in Hatchards and Piccadilly in London. So it's still trickling along, but yeah, it's been great to see the interest and to share the story with people. Jonathan Thomas (02:18) Yeah, I've enjoyed watching your social media posts. You have been everywhere. It's a, you're you're a, Quintin (02:24) Yeah, no, it was a first thing, five venues in Scotland, which was brilliant. know, places I hadn't been to since The Perimeter. So it was nice to be sleeping in a comfortable bed. Jonathan Thomas (02:34) So of all the national trails you've completed, where would you rank Hadrian's Wall in terms of difficulty and in terms of overall experience? Quintin (02:42) Yeah it's such a good question. think in terms of difficulty it would be kind of maybe a six out of ten, kind of a moderate level. It's definitely not as difficult as say the southwest coast path which has loads of ups and downs or the Pennine Way which is bleak moorland and huge distances, but it's definitely easier than something like maybe the North or South Downs Way, where there's lots of villages and pubs and it's like rolling landscape or the Cotswold Way that's the same rolling landscape with pubs and you know, there's challenges, but I would sort of say they're easier. And in terms of... ⁓ kind of theme, what's so unique about the Hadrian's Wall is that you're completely imbued in the kind of the Roman world and the Roman history from beginning to end. So that what makes it completely unique. I think I've said that it's more like walking an idea than walking a trail, whereas all the other national trails in Britain tends to be, it's the excitement of say approaching Canterbury or approaching the White Cliffs of Dover or the different landscapes blending from one to another. But this one you're just, it's just like a road movie. You're in the Roman world from beginning to end and that's really exciting. And then ⁓ almost as if it's been choreographed to experience it. You have a museum or a site that explains what you're seeing as you go along. So it's a really rich experience. Jonathan Thomas (03:57) Yeah, that's as a museum nerd. That's one thing I'm looking forward to is I hope that my legs will allow me to stop and go visit all the museums along the way, because I know that will add such context, because this is a landscape that has been thought about for 2000 years, you know. Quintin (04:08) It did. Absolutely, yes, yeah, yeah. Jonathan Thomas (04:13) So you mentioned in our last conversation that walking opens your heart and your mind. Did you find that same contemplative quality along this walk or was it a different kind of experience than the crush of getting around the entire coastline of Britain? Quintin (04:28) mean, it was different because it's so much shorter, but I think walking always does that, the meditative nature of it. And it's, it's, there's a kind of simplicity to the Hadrian's Walk because really it's a coast to coast walk. So you do get a sea at both ends at Newcastle and Carlisle. And then it's this sort of upland, moorland route. So I think it's more, because there's not so many ideas to consider, makes it more focused and contemplative. Yeah, but I, ⁓ I think because there's so much history to think about, my mind wasn't drifting off in poetic areas. I was really pretty much the whole time thinking about how Britain must have been 2000 years ago. And that was unique and interesting. Jonathan Thomas (05:09) So let's set the scene. ⁓ You did this walk, I think in 2023, right? ⁓ So what time of year did you do the walk and how long did you give yourself to do the walk? Quintin (05:15) That's right, yeah, 23, yeah. So I did it in April and ⁓ because I was backpacking and wild camping like I normally do, I'm sure we'll come onto this later, but there's not many places to resupply and there's not many places to stay on the route either. So I was kind of encouraged to do quite long days in terms of the logistics of hiking, but in terms of enjoying the route, I wanted to spend as much time. at the historical site. So I ended up doing five and a half days of walking. And at the end, it is fast, but I was doing long days, but then I did half a day in Newcastle at the end, looking at the museums. did a full day prior to walking in Carlisle at the beginning. And then my distances, I actually did a huge day after Housetead's Fort because it was so interesting. I was there for five hours. did a 33 kilometer or it's 20, I did a 20 mile day up to Newcastle, which I'd say is like the probably the least interesting day as well. So that's, that was my way around it. Jonathan Thomas (05:55) wow, that's fast. wow. Quintin (06:25) So I averaged sort of 15 kilometers a day ⁓ and then I did a monster day at the end. So that's how did it. But that was the weird constraints of camping. Jonathan Thomas (06:35) Yeah, and that's and that's where I don't want to brag I'm doing this walk a little differently Being sponsored by Macs adventure. They specialize in and and planning people's logistics for these walks. And so I'm doing their 10-day route guidance and so It kind of spreads the walk out much further than the new kind of compressed it in I think the the the longest day is 15 miles Quintin (07:02) Mm-hmm. Jonathan Thomas (07:02) ⁓ And then I basically walk from B &B to B &B. So no camping. No camping for me. Quintin (07:06) Perfect. I it's best way to do it, to be honest. I just have this masochistic interest in camping. I sort of feel, I do like to sort of live in the environment all throughout the day. I feel kind of connected, but it's the classic best way to do it, to enjoy it. Jonathan Thomas (07:27) Well, it informs your art and your photography because you are literally inhabiting the landscape. And so it gives you the time and the space to properly frame it and capture it. Quintin (07:31) It does, yeah. Yeah. That's right, and I don't have to work to a schedule if a B &B owner wants me there at nine and there's an amazing sunset and I'm not finished till 11, it doesn't matter. that's a sort of unique priority to me that I have flexibility of time like that. Jonathan Thomas (07:56) So the big most important question I have to ask about the walk is which direction did you walk and why? Quintin (08:02) I think there's no reason not to want to walk it west to east for so many reasons because you've got the so that means walking from Carlisle to Newcastle so you have the prevailing wind behind you which is a which is a big advantage and then I Jonathan Thomas (08:17) But you did it. You had the wind in your face. Oh, okay. Okay. Quintin (08:21) No, no, no, no West. I walked the way that I'd advise people to go. So from Carlisle, walking East from the West to the East, ending up in Newcastle and also Newcastle to me is more. you I like Carlisle but Newcastle's such an extraordinary fantastic city and it's a kind of better place to celebrate at the end you know there's more amazing restaurants and sites and the Tyne and the Bridge and I found that was more celebratory end and the museum at Walls End is really interesting ⁓ to end it and maybe we'll come onto this but if you have time I'd advise you you actually continue from the Walls End right to Tyne Mouth so it's just a little bit longer but then you're literally going from coast to coast and that's kind really you get a totally different landscape and you're literally looking out to the sea. Jonathan Thomas (09:08) Yeah, that's actually kind of what I want to do. I saw I'm going to do east to west. ⁓ I thought I thought I thought long and hard about it. And I the one of the experiences I want is I want the experience of walking out of a city into into nothingness. ⁓ Quintin (09:16) Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That, is, that's, that's a strong positive of your route. Yeah. Jonathan Thomas (09:30) Yeah, because that's something that I just I have no context for that here. Like, you know, like I live in the Chicagoland area. I if I started in downtown Chicago and started walking for 100 miles in every direction, I'd still be either in Chicago or in suburbs. Like so the idea that I can walk out of a major city into the open countryside like it was really exciting to me. And so but I'm going to do what you suggest, actually, because I'm going to I'm going to ride the metro. I'm going to write I'm going to arrive a day early. Quintin (09:34) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Jonathan Thomas (09:58) before my walk actually starts. And then I'm gonna ride the Metro to Tynemouth, like you said, and go to the castle and I'm gonna put my feet in the sea and say that I went in the sea in that end. And then I'm gonna do the museum in Newcastle where I get the stamp on the passport. And then I'm gonna walk the first five miles because it's all in the city. Quintin (09:58) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Perfect, yeah. Yeah. Jonathan Thomas (10:26) And if I, by the end of that, should end up actually back at my hotel. And then that, that way my jet lag body doesn't have to walk 15 miles on the first day. Yeah. Quintin (10:30) Yeah. That's great and also your route is gentler for the first two days because it's much flatter and easier leaving Newcastle. One thing I'd suggest that the official route of the footpath follows the tine because the tine is picturesque but if you want to be a purist, which I did, you can try and follow the actual wall through Walls End and that's kind of weird because it's really built up but then you get like a tiny section of the wall outside a hair salon. Jonathan Thomas (10:41) Yeah. Yeah. Hahaha Yeah. Quintin (11:04) And it's kind of really weird and strange, but you can actually follow the wall, but it's more urban. So it's up to you, but it is no longer. Jonathan Thomas (11:12) Yeah. Yeah. And so that's, that's the plan for Newcastle. And I've never been to Newcastle. So I wanted to give myself a day there to, to kind of orient myself and explore and, and, and see, cause I just, I've never been there other than driving through it about 10 years ago. So, yeah. So that's. Quintin (11:30) No, it's really exciting. It almost has a sort of scale of Chicago, kind of really big, kind of high. And it's unique and obviously there's beautiful bridges and it's a really exciting metropolis feel. It's very unique in Britain. Jonathan Thomas (11:34) Yeah. Yeah, so you said earlier in this interview and in your previous interview that the Hadrian's Wall is probably the most intense national trail in terms of walking in history. And you've already touched a little bit on this, but can you elaborate little more on what you meant by that and what makes it feel so connected to this 2000 years of Roman history? Quintin (11:46) Hmm. So the famous iconic images of the wall winding across a open modern landscape, that's maybe the two days in the center, but the days on either side, you'd still have quite strong traces of it. Sometimes they're just ditches or bumps in the fields, but every day you can see it. And it's exciting because the bumps and the valums. because it wasn't one wall it was a big defensive ditch on the Scottish side then there was a wall then there was the Roman road then there was another ditch called a valum so there's sometimes you see multiple landforms moving through the landscape and you can you can really kind of see them pretty much every day and that so it's not like you're kind of desperately looking for something and it's kind of easy to imagine what it's like in the landscape and because the the wind seal which is the geological feature where the land slips from from north to south because the war follows this it's it's sort of not hard to imagine where where it lies because it's it's not the wall is following the geology as well. it's, and then because of the museums and the mile thoughts and all the different parts of Roman history, which are all quite different ⁓ along the route, you just can't escape it. So it sort of just kind of gets into you. Yeah. Jonathan Thomas (13:23) Well, and in your perimeter walk, obviously the landscape of Britain is very varied from the book. And if anybody doesn't believe me, look at his book. I mean, the landscape changes so drastically throughout your journey there, from seaside resorts to the remote Scottish highlands. How would you describe the variety of landscape on the Hadrian's Wall walk? Quintin (13:31) Hmm. Okay, so on the west of bonus on subway, it's kind of flat. sort of floodplains, then it's agricultural flat land, and then it becomes kind of rolling farmland, and then it becomes rugged, moorland, highland in the central section. So you've got a the wind seal feature I mentioned, which is a cliff on the northern side and then rolling pretty steep rolling hills that the wall follows. And then it slides down through agricultural land to Newcastle. So I'd say it's sort of upland moorland plus agricultural with a of floodplain on the other side. Jonathan Thomas (14:24) Sounds like the perfect English landscape. Quintin (14:27) Yeah, it is. is. No, very, it's very the pastoral rural scene. And the biggest unexpected trail of the walk to me was not only the excitement of following this bit of history, but the views from it when the weather is clear, because you can see the whole you can see the Lake District Mountains, you can see the North Pennines, you can look north to the ⁓ the kind of the hills in southern Scotland and Kielder Forest. So you kind of, it's like a pivot point. You can, get a sense of there's Scotland, there's Alba, there's the North Pennines as you look around. And that's kind of really exciting kind of to connect separate worlds that you, because it's high enough ground you can see that as you walk around. Jonathan Thomas (15:04) That's good to know and I have to make sure I bring my long lens. So, ⁓ what kind of weather did you experience throughout your walk? Did you have pleasant weather the whole time or did it rain or? Quintin (15:08) You do, you do, yeah. Hmm. It rained quite a bit. I was April, I think you're doing it in the summer, you? You shouldn't have so much, August, yeah. And you'll have longer days and better light. So it was kind of cold and damp, but then as always, there was enough gorgeous moments of sun in between it. So it was pretty windy and ⁓ it wasn't ideal, but it made for some moody pictures. And for me, I kind of like going sort of off season because there's less tourists, especially for this route, because I think you're, Jonathan Thomas (15:23) August, yeah. Quintin (15:49) come into it but you you might need to think quite carefully about booking tours and booking visits of the big sites because Hausteds kind of gets around in the summer. Jonathan Thomas (15:58) Yeah, that and that's something that I'm grateful ⁓ for my sponsor is they're kind of just they're going to handle that for me. And so yeah, and essentially, yeah, well, and and when I when they booked everything, they booked everything last like September, October. So they were like, if we're going to do this, we have to book the hotel rooms now, because they will fill up by by the by 2026. And so they were really Johnny on the spot about getting everything booked in because Quintin (16:05) nice, nice, perfect. You have a valet. Hmm. Yes. Yeah. They will. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ fantastic, fantastic, yeah. Jonathan Thomas (16:27) because they don't want me having to wild camp. So the famous metal section around steel rig and house-steads is what everyone pictures when they think of Hadrian's wall. But what surprised you about the less photographed other sections of the wall at either end? Quintin (16:31) Yeah, yeah. I was really surprised that there are fragments of the wall in Newcastle still and I believe at the actual war's end. for those who don't know, the place is called war's end because of the Hadrian's wall ending. It took me a long time to realize why the place is called war's end. And then where the wall ends as well, the ship building, the famous Victorian ship building was. And then the Romans built a temple and a pontoon out from the end of the wall. ⁓ So that hole and how you can still come across bits of the wall in Newcastle was really exciting. And then on the, I think my strongest strange memory was towards the end, a place called Limestone Corner. I'd done a very long day and I couldn't find any good to sleep. So I slept in the ditch itself just to get out of the wind and then the Valum next to it. has the, because the fascinating thing is that the the war was dug by the Roman soldiers themselves, the legionaries, over six years. It's incredibly fast and they weren't using slaves to do it, it was the Roman soldiers themselves. So you really get a sense of these these poor guys in this windswept environment doing this work but there were these huge blocks of Jonathan Thomas (17:57) Ha Quintin (18:00) of stone, which have got the Roman drill holes in it, where they've tried to wedge them apart in order to make the ditch. And they've clearly kind of given up. So we're talking kind of four meter huge blocks of stone with these holes in. And I remember standing there, seeing these cracks, seeing the holes. And it's just, it's kind of funny because you think you just think they've just gone. This is too much. We can't do this anymore. And you're completely taken back to, you know, the people that would have stayed there. So that was the moment I felt most connected to history on the journey. Jonathan Thomas (18:30) Well, that's interesting you mentioned that because the I believe the Roman the legionnaires, they were made up of people from all over the Roman Empire. And it was a very multi ethnic, multi cultural type of of organization. And so you had all these people from far flung warm parts of the Roman Empire and cold, rainy northern England trying to build a wall. I imagine that must have been quite a shift for their from their perspectives. Quintin (18:56) That's right, because I'm sure you'll go to Vindolanda, because there are these fantastic wooden tablets that were discovered, which were sort of the Roman postcards that they'd sent home. And as you say, it's people from all around the empire. And if they did their military duty, they would become Roman citizens. So there was a big incentive for them to do that. And there were people from Syria and what's now Poland and all over the world. were Jonathan Thomas (19:00) Yeah. Quintin (19:22) position there. And then the notes which they're writing home were things like, please send me new socks. And it's very domestic stuff. And saying like to their wife how kind of boring it is and there's nothing to do. It's very wet. And they're looking forward to seeing them. And yeah, it's, you know, you can. Jonathan Thomas (19:28) Hahaha. Well, it's that it's that mundanity that that really connects us to them. And it's like it's almost like a time machine that, you know, that they were they were all experiencing the same thing that we would be experiencing. We're cold, we're wet. Mom, please send me some socks and treats, you know. Quintin (19:43) Yes, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Jonathan Thomas (19:57) So what would you say is your most memorable moment from the entire national trail of the Hadrian's Wall? Quintin (20:04) I mean, it's the iconic moment approaching Hausted's thought where you see the wind seal and the sort of bead of the war that's in its most pristine form, just looping across the landscape. And when I saw it, was towards the end of the day and there was a beautiful side light, golden side light to it. ⁓ it's you know you imagine seeing a famous monument and you imagine is it going to be as amazing as the postcards and when it is that was truly tremendous and probably number two because I visited before the sycamore gap tree had been cut and because the Pennine Way which is a long distance footpath through the north of England. I'd walked that as part of my Lands End General Grades walk when I was 20. So I recognised the tree kind of 30 years later and this landscape and that for me was a really significant moment of sort of a crossroads literally in my life of being a sort of young man at the start of a career to being a kind of father many years later, but crossing the same route. It's a weird thing about these footpaths because, you know, sometimes you think, well, you'll never be here again, but sometimes you might cross it. many years later. So those would be the two memorable moments for me. Jonathan Thomas (21:17) Yeah, and I guess it's a good time we talk about the famous tree. So when you when you did the tree was still there or it was gone. I was still there. OK, well, you're very lucky then that you got to see it, because it it I'm I'm bummed that that's one of the things that that I'm going to miss because I wanted to do this walk for 15 years and so I was always like I'm going to see that tree for the famous scene from Robin Hood and then. Quintin (21:25) It was still there, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Jonathan Thomas (21:45) Yeah, and then oh, well now it's gone. And Quintin (21:46) Yeah. Jonathan Thomas (21:47) it's like, oh, well, that's it's, it's a good reminder that even in the English landscape, things are can be very impermanent and that they're never going to be there forever. And it's like, it's heartbreaking. Quintin (21:54) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, because I remember as a young man seeing it as quite a small tree and then seeing it again as a tree. It's like a measure of one's own life and then to see it so senselessly cut down. Yeah, it's still, it's still, you've still got a castle. Nick is one of the fortresses near it is really spectacular and Jonathan Thomas (22:04) Yeah. Quintin (22:15) geology is seriously dramatic so it will have a lot of power even without the tree but the tree was the kind of you know the Jonathan Thomas (22:22) Yeah. Well, and even it's trunk is a monument in itself. And I think it's very moving that they've taken saplings from the tree and they're going to send them around Britain so that the tree can kind of live on. hopefully, yeah. Yeah, the National Trust, I think they grew 10 saplings and they were able to salvage it from the hulk of the tree. Quintin (22:29) It is, yeah. I really didn't know that, that's great. I thought they were, yeah. Okay, so yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Jonathan Thomas (22:55) And so they're gonna, I don't know if they've decided where they're gonna put them, but they're gonna plant them at 10 strategic locations across the country so that the tree can kind of live on. So why do you go to, yeah. Quintin (23:03) Yeah. nice, nice, yeah. Jonathan Thomas (23:09) So let's talk a little bit about your trade, the photography on the route. ⁓ As a photographer, what were the most challenging and rewarding aspects of shooting along the wall other than carrying the big equipment with you? Quintin (23:13) Hmm. I mean, it's always the kind of English thing, especially in the spring, is just dealing with the weather and accepting that some hours of the day, it's going to be pretty much impossible, but kind of being relaxed enough that that's just what's going to happen. But then there will always be some good moments on either side and just be ready for those good moments. ⁓ The specific challenges of the Hadrian's Warpath versus other landscapes are... some of the good views are a long way away like I mentioned with Cumbria and the Pennines so a long lens does help and a long lens also helps with picking out you know that that beautiful view of the of the winding wall that we all want in the distance because sometimes they were they actually looked more dramatic from a long way away so that was a challenge and then I was I was thinking about getting to the best moments towards the beginning and the end of the day because the long the long shadows means that any landscape feature looks more three-dimensional. So the wall looks more 3D when you've got a good shadow on it. In the middle of the day when the sun's coming down the top it doesn't look so 3D, so that makes a weaker photo. So those were the considerations for this journey. Jonathan Thomas (24:34) I'm taking notes. I definitely think I'm have to pack my long lens. I, yeah. Well, what I think I'm gonna do, I think I'm gonna carry two cameras, which is insane, because I have a small backpack. But I think I'll carry one camera with a long lens and just one with a wide angle landscape lens. then just, yeah. were there any iconic spots other than, Sycamore Gap? Quintin (24:38) You must, Yeah. Sounds good, sounds good, yeah. ⁓ Jonathan Thomas (25:04) for it was cut down that you particularly wanted to capture. And how do you approach photographing things that are so well known so that they look different or they feel different? Quintin (25:14) This was a very difficult walk to add my own signature to. I don't think I have, you're praising me here, I think in six days, it just wasn't enough time. think if I was to do a book about H.N.'s wall, I'd want to dedicate months to it in all different seasons. So it was just a transient. Jonathan Thomas (25:23) Yeah. Quintin (25:37) journey and for my project on the national trails I'm happy about that. ⁓ But it would be the fortresses like Birds of World or House Teds Fort were the most kind of surprising things visually how intact some parts were like the this latrine which is still 2000 years old it still functions it still drains itself there's still kind of there's carvings, there's lead fittings where the stones were attached and you can look at them directly and know that they were assembled years ago. Jonathan Thomas (26:15) So you mentioned that, I think you of already answered this, it never hurts to repeat ourselves. What time of day produced the best light? You mentioned it was towards the end of the day with the long shadows. What about at dawn or? Quintin (26:28) Yes, Dawn and Dusk was more rich in my style of photography, of coastal photography in the Morelands. was often just quite dark. gloomy in April at dawn and dusk. definitely the best time for me would be an hour after sunrise and an hour before sunset. Because that's when you had these, you know, because the landscape is is dramatic, but it's not like massive peaks. So those rolling and the crags, they looked much more epic when there was a side light on it. So probably for you in the summer, you'd probably get good, good material, maybe *two hours before sunrise and two hours before sunset* Whereas for me in April, it was one hour. So you've got probably quite a lot of time. to work with. Jonathan Thomas (27:11) Yeah, and I was just trying to think of the logistics that I should be on the trail still at least at one point of the day on that those times, whether I'm starting or whether I'm finishing. ⁓ At least in the long days I should be. Yeah, so that's good to know. So ⁓ for The Perimeter, you talked about how walking lets you make your own luck as a photographer by being in position when the light is right. Did that same principle apply on Hadrian's Wall or did you feel? Quintin (27:20) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Jonathan Thomas (27:41) a compulsion to just keep moving. Quintin (27:43) No, I mean, I walked, I moved a lot slower on on Hadrian's Wall, I did on The Perimeter. Because there was so much, you know, because the museums are so fascinating. And because, because the the really special bit that the two days central section of the wall, you know, I wasn't going to rush that I was really lingering and taking my time over that bit. But yes, my approach is always that. to not force it and to allow the light to dictate where I'm going to linger and where it's going to be most interesting. ⁓ That said, I did make sure that like at the Sill ⁓ YHA place, I did make sure I arrived there ⁓ towards the end of the day because that's one of the most dramatic parts and that's ⁓ for a backpacker or someone traveling independently, that's really the only place that was the one place I stayed overnight as a to refuel away from the tent. Jonathan Thomas (28:39) yeah, so that you did stay in a B &B one night. Yeah, okay. Would you wild camp it again if you were if you were going to do the walk again? Quintin (28:40) Yeah. One night, yeah, yeah. It was exceptionally difficult to wild camp this particular long distance trail because it's pretty barren uplands. So it was definitely stealth camping. was definitely like a farm, farm, a tiny copse of wood. And you're thinking, am I going to be seen walking to that wood? So it was a bit stealthy, sneaky, beaky, but I kind of quite, because of the... history of the Romans and the raiding Scots and then after the Roman era it was the era of the Reavers and it was a contested land of the Scots and the English and it was continually being fought over. It kind of added to that sense of mischief for my experience of the trail but it was a difficult trail to wild camp and I wouldn't suggest it as a first backpacking trail for anyone. I mean if they're camping. Jonathan Thomas (29:39) ⁓ I'm a lightweight. I just, can't camp. mean, I was a boy scout, but I did my camping days when I was a kid, but now I'm too much of a softy. Yeah. ⁓ Quintin (29:54) It's just what you enjoy. mean, you can carry more cameras, you can carry more books. There's lots of upsides to traveling with a B ⁓ &B. Jonathan Thomas (30:03) Yeah. So what was the hardest day on the trail and what made it difficult? Was it that 20 mile push you said? Quintin (30:12) Yeah, the hardest for me personally was the 20 mile push just because I had a, it's just a, that's a really long day with a heavy bag. But the hardest day kind of objectively for most people would have been the central section because it's not not to be underestimated their steep escarpments and you go up one and down the other, whatever it is, what 100 meters, 50 meters up and down. It's not like technically difficult ground. not like slip risk, but you know, it's it's tiring. So that would be I think for most people that's and also I think your your Macs adventures has told you that there's a 15 mile section. I think there's no way around that because it's really from one road to the next you just have to do that. So that would definitely be the big the biggest challenge and that's also the hardest terrain. Jonathan Thomas (30:50) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and that kind of leads into my next question that I wanted to make sure I asked you. And I'm sorry, I forgot to put this on the list, but I remember that I wanted to make sure I talked to you about this. ⁓ So when I get to the end of the walk, ⁓ so it's taking me 10 days. ⁓ The last day has been a 15 mile push to finish. ⁓ And then I, know. Quintin (31:08) Mm-hmm. Jonathan Thomas (31:26) I go to bed that night in the B and B that they've arranged and I wake up the next day and what do I do the next day after having pushed my body for the last 10 days? Do I get up and have a leisurely day and do nothing there? Do I keep moving? I mean, what should I do that day after? Quintin (31:42) Well, physically, you should definitely keep moving. mean, the best thing if you've, whether you've run a marathon or walked a big backpacking trail would be gentle stretching, good nutrition, and like a modest amount of gentle movements, know, sort of, sort of five to 7,000 steps kind of thing. don't, if you, if you stay still, your muscles will tense up more and you'll ultimately feel worse. Jonathan Thomas (31:45) Yeah. Quintin (32:06) But in terms of this particular trail, I would kind of combine that with going to a museum if you're into that. So you're ending in Carlisle, right? Or Bonne-Bonnes. Yeah. But I'd suggest perhaps you could, because there's two really interesting things in Carlisle. There's the Norman ⁓ castle there. Jonathan Thomas (32:15) Well, I ain't in bonus songs. Yeah, bonus, so. Quintin (32:28) And then there's a really good Roman museum and they're both really fascinating and they both take quite a long time to see. So you could, when you walk through that, you might bypass that. And then on your rest and recovery day, you could eat a lot of good food and walk between those museums. And then you, by default, you'd be doing gentle movement and that would make you, so you won't seize up and you get back on the plane or whatever you're doing next. Yeah. So I did that by in a second genome, the Fort in Newcastle. That was my approach. So. I stopped just on the outskirts of Newcastle, so my last day was a very low mileage day, and then half of it was spent looking at museums. And then the evening I had a slap-up meal, stayed in a hotel in Newcastle, and then took the train home. Jonathan Thomas (33:12) Yeah, and that's that actually that sounds like a good idea for Carlisle because I have to actually get back to Carlisle to take a train anywhere. So it makes it makes sense to kind of maybe spend a couple hours there before before moving on elsewhere. I've never been to Carlisle, so it should be interesting. ⁓ Yeah, so what ⁓ what Roman site of all the sites you stopped and visited kind of made the biggest impression on you? Quintin (33:19) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, it's so difficult. mean, think Vindolanda to find these tablets that have been excavated with these human stories of the Roman soldiers is really extraordinary. But I mean, it's how states by quite a long margin is one of the most exceptional bits of archaeology in Britain. It's so intact. it's, you're walking around it, you can see the bakery, you can see the barracks, you can see these latrines I mentioned earlier, and you have such a strong sense of how the would have been. It's the most intact of all the Roman forts, so that would be kind of premier number one site, sort of Vindolanda probably second. And then Birds of Walled is also pretty amazing because of how it sits in the landscape, there's not much else around it. And for me, Birds of Walled was the first big site traveling from west to east. by the time you reach there, you might have sort of seen enough. ⁓ But I think probably, you know, it's the first site has a particular power because you've kind of, you're excited about it. But the Halsteads was, you you must spend time for that. Jonathan Thomas (34:51) Did you get the little passport stamps along the way as you walking? You did? Yeah, yeah, I'm hoping to do that. I want to get the certificates as I did it. So knowing the history of the wall and who built it and what life was like for the soldier station there that you learned about along the way, did it change how you experienced the walk? Quintin (34:54) I did, I did, yeah, it's funny, I did, I did, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, it's funny, yeah, yeah. Yes, totally. Because I always travel alone and then in the tent I tend to listen to podcasts. There's quite a few good BBC sounds stories about Hadrian's War, different people talking about it. So I really immersed myself in it. It was all Hadrian's War stuff for me and that richness of experience made added to the journey. Jonathan Thomas (35:35) So what's one thing that you wish someone had told you about the walk before you walked Hadrian's Wall that you kind of learned from the walk that you're like, I wish somebody had told me that would happen. Quintin (35:48) I was thinking about this question. I mean in a way it's far far more interesting historically than I thought. I kind of thought it'd be a bunch of old stones. It'd be loads of things that are all the same. After half a day I would have had enough, but actually it was so rich and deep and they're all different. It's way more fascinating. Even if you're not a hiker, just to see it as a tourist was way more interesting. So that's the definite kind of, that's the biggest surprise. And then you do have to brace yourself that the kind of walk from Newcastle to where the wall starts to be dramatic is quite a long stretch where there's not so much to see, but it's sort of one day out of the 10. So that's a small price to pay and it's still very picturesque. Jonathan Thomas (36:31) Well, and you know, I'm I'm very interested in all the history that came after Rome and that in that area. So hopefully my eyes will still be entertained from the history that's there that was after the Romans, because that's what that's one thing that surprised me in researching this is I thought, you know, the joke is that as men, all we think about is the Roman Empire. But actually, I don't think about the Roman Empire that much. And I was. Quintin (36:36) Yeah. Jonathan Thomas (36:59) starting to research, I'm like, actually just, the Roman Empire stuff actually seems kind of boring to me, but the more I research and the more I read into it, actually it's more, way more interesting than I thought it was. And I think, so I can't wait now to get on the wall and see these real places and see the archaeological, you know, remains and learn about this stuff because it's actually way more interesting than I thought it would be. Quintin (37:22) Yeah, I think it's because you're actually walking and walking is hard enough going up and down these, this moorland. And then you think that these guys were stationed there for seven years and they were with their own pickaxes and shovels. They were digging these things and to do it so precisely. And then the organization to make it all look the same all the way through. You just, just a feat of labor is kind of fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Jonathan Thomas (37:46) Yeah, just a monument of human effort. Quintin (37:49) I suppose the other thing for people, because I'd done quite a bit of research myself, so I wasn't surprised, but if you think you can kind of wing it and buy food and provisions along the way, you won't. I mean, it's really difficult for resupply. mean, there are cafes around the tourist sites, but that needs planning. Jonathan Thomas (38:09) Yeah, and that's something ⁓ to make my wife feel better about the walk. I tried to tell her that I'll never be particularly far from civilization, but that's good to know that I should pay attention to resupply and and and that's a. Quintin (38:23) Yeah, it's not like a danger, but it's just you, it's sort of five or six miles to get somewhere. It would spoil the day if you had to go to, cook along to the next town to find food. Jonathan Thomas (38:27) Think ahead. Yeah, and I have to plug them again. Kudos to Macs Adventure because they have an app. ⁓ The app gives you your route for every day and it tells you where all the provisions and where all the places to eat are so that you plan your route so that you are well fed, which is nice. Quintin (38:59) That's great, I guess you get a packed lunch too from the B &B as well and all those luxuries. Yeah, nice, nice, nice. Jonathan Thomas (39:04) Yes, yes. yeah. So yeah, it's ⁓ so looking ahead. ⁓ So when we last talked, you you were working on climbing and camping all of the 442 mountains in England, Wales. How is that project going? Quintin (39:23) I'm doing really well. I've done 375 of them. So I've got a 60 something to go. So in the summer I finished all the Welsh mountains, it's about 190. And I'm currently focused on the Yorkshire Dales. So last week I was up in the Yorkshire Dales. It's very wintery here. It was minus seven. It's the first time in a long time I've had to sleep with the water bottles in my sleeping bag. It's like a cold water bottle to stop them freezing in the morning. Jonathan Thomas (39:27) Wow. Haha. Good to keep the water warm. Quintin (39:52) Yeah, well just otherwise I couldn't have my beloved coffee in the morning. yeah, so was, yeah, it's a really beautiful place. It's a mountain range called the Howgills, which are between Cumbria and the Yorkshire Dales, a bit less lesser known and very, it's been said they look like sleeping elephants. They're of quite rounded and smooth. There's no fences or walls on it. So that's me at the moment. Jonathan Thomas (40:03) Hmm. Yeah, I've been in that area. That's a really pretty area. stayed in the Northern Lake District a few years ago with the Troutbeck is where I stayed. Beautiful, beautiful area. ⁓ Very remote and we're really the only background noise is sheep. And I did see, have you ever done the Hard Knot Pass, ⁓ the steepest road in Britain? Quintin (40:19) Yeah. Yes, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it is, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Jonathan Thomas (40:46) Yeah, I did visit the hard knot room for it, is which is a weird because that fort is not on the wall or near the wall. But yet here's another fort they built in the middle of nowhere on the edge of civilization that has beautiful views of the Irish Sea. So it's it's a. There they got everywhere and that's that's one thing I've learned from the history too, is that while they built Hadrian's Wall, it wasn't like a bear, an impassable barrier like. Quintin (41:03) I mean they're everywhere, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Jonathan Thomas (41:15) There was Roman influence beyond the wall. There were settlements beyond the wall. The wall was just kind of a demarcation point, like a center of power and control. Quintin (41:25) That's right, it wasn't strictly military. was a kind of almost like a trade. Yeah, it was a symbolic mark of the northern extent of the empire and then you'd have to pay taxes to move. ⁓ And then there's the Antonine Wall, was built subsequently further north. So yeah, the history is super interesting about their encounters with the Scots. Jonathan Thomas (41:32) Now. So what's next for your adventures other than the mountains? Quintin (41:57) I'm still, it's all mountains at the moment. So yeah, I'd be, it's the Yorkshire Dales and then subsequently I'll be going back to the Lake District and then after that will be the Cheviot Hills. So it's all North England at the moment. Jonathan Thomas (42:00) Small mountains. When do you think you'll finish all of them? Quintin (42:15) Probably, hopefully this time next year, maybe if I have a good run, I might finish in the summer. Jonathan Thomas (42:24) Hopefully there will be a book at the end. ⁓ So, well, what a fantastic conversation. This has been Quinton. Thank you so much for joining us again on the Ingotopia podcast to talk about Hadrian's Wall. I'm really grateful. ⁓ We will put links to Quinton's website and the show notes, his social media, and of course we will link to The Perimeter book and the show notes. And I will also link to his article he wrote for the Guardian about his walk on Hadrian's Wall. Quintin (42:26) The will, the will. Jonathan Thomas (42:53) If you're planning to walk Hadrian's Wall yourself, his photography and his insights are invaluable preparation. And if anything, you can look at some beautiful pictures, which he's very humble, but I think it's some of his best work. So if you want to follow along with my own Hadrian's Wall adventure this summer, make sure you're subscribed to the podcast and following Anglotopia on social media. If you're considering your own walk on Hadrian's Wall or other national trails, consider booking with our partner for my upcoming trip, Macs Adventure. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, like, or leave a comment. And if you love the Anglotopia podcast, please consider joining the Friends of Anglotopia Club, where you can get early access to new episodes and connect with other enthusiasts about Britain. So join us next time as we continue exploring the people, places, and stories that make Britain's history and culture so endlessly fascinating to discover. Thank you again, Quintin. Quintin (43:45) Thanks a lot Jonathan, great to talk to you again.