Jonathan Thomas (00:12) Welcome back to the Anglotopia Podcast. The podcasts are people who love British travel, history, and culture. I'm your host, Jonathan Thomas, and today we're talking about something very close to my heart. British food at Christmas. My guest today is Lucy Pask, a British expat living in Chicago who works for Jolly Posh Foods, purveyors of fine British meats and other authentic British foods for the American market. actually had the pleasure of seeing Lucy just a few weeks ago at the annual British American Business Council Guy Fawkes Bonfire Night celebration here in Chicago, which is always a wonderful gathering of local Brits and Anglophiles. This episode of the Anglotopia podcast is actually sponsored by Jolly Posh Foods. We have to disclose that. Jolly Posh Foods has been a long time advertising partner for Anglotopia and for good reason. They're helping British expats across America get the authentic taste of home that are nearly impossible to find here from proper sausages and back bacon to meat pies, scones and afternoon tea and sticky toffee pudding. But this conversation isn't just about commerce. It's about what food means to expats, especially during the holidays. and about the comfort of familiar tastes, the challenge of explaining British Christmas dinner to confused Americans and what it's like to celebrate a very British holiday thousands of miles from Britain. We're going to talk about Lucy's journey from Britain to Chicago, what British Christmas foods are absolutely non-negotiable and the lengths expats will go for a proper Christmas dinner and how Jolly Posh is helping keep British food traditions alive in America. Welcome to the podcast, Lucy. Lucy Pask (01:47) Thank you so much. It's lovely to finally be here. I love seeing you around and about and now here we are. Jonathan Thomas (01:52) Well, thank you for being on the podcast. I've been dying to have you on for eight for ages. Why don't you go ahead and give us the sales pitch for Jolly Posh Foods? What do you guys have on offer this holiday season? Lucy Pask (01:58) Hello. Lots of things on offer and Jolly Posh are America's number one British style butcher. So it was started by somebody who basically missed bacon so much that he decided to make it himself. he left corporate life, Nick left corporate life and started the business from a farmer's market table. And over the years, it's grown enormously. And in recent times, it's gone ⁓ online. So rather than just serving the Chicago area. Jonathan Thomas (02:17) Yeah. Lucy Pask (02:35) with our sausages, black bacon, haggis, black pudding, white pudding, I could go on. We're now serving nationwide, which is really exciting. And at this point, I often let the reviews speak for themselves. We've got somewhere in the region of 7,000 verified reviews from people who really love the fact that we're able to provide a true taste of home and all the things that they're unable to put in their suitcase and bring back with them when they live in America. Jonathan Thomas (03:04) I've always admired Nick Spencer She's talking about Nick Spencer as the founder of Jolly Posh. I've always admired that his solution to his problem was a very American solution. I'm just going to make it myself. Yeah, and I'm actually bubbling with anticipation because I'm awaiting my latest Jolly Posh order. And it's supposed to be shipping this week. So I cannot wait to get my latest helping of bacon. Lucy Pask (03:15) Absolutely. Yes, and obviously as expats ourselves, we're constantly trying to bring over the things that we know we miss and our customers miss, including this year launching ⁓ two different flavors of pork pie. So traditional authentic pork pies. And also being able to make them in a way that they can ship easily. ⁓ And that's something that we're really particularly very good at doing is not just making authentic products, but making sure that you can actually they actually taste like home. You can cook them and it's not just some, it's something we've really taken a lot of time and effort into making sure it tastes right. And that's something that's great. Jonathan Thomas (04:11) So let's start with your story, Lucy. How did a British person end up in Chicago, of all places? What brought you to America and why Chicago? Lucy Pask (04:20) That's my first one of my favorite questions to be asked. Well, Jonathan, one of the reasons I love talking to you particularly is that you are as passionate about the UK as I am about living in the USA. my story starts in the 1980s when everything was ⁓ USA obsessive, definitely in the UK. And in much the same way that you are an Anglophile, I have been an Americanophile my whole life. Jonathan Thomas (04:22) I'm Love it. Love it. Lucy Pask (04:50) And I always wanted to live here. And then when in the late 2000s, me and my husband decided we would try and give it a go and through great effort, got a visa, said we'd give it three years, got another visa, said we'd give it three years and we're still here 15 years later. And we're both now as of two years ago, American citizens. So I don't even think I could call myself an expat anymore. think I am a... Jonathan Thomas (05:08) Wow. Congratulations. Lucy Pask (05:17) a fully grounded both feet to this side of the pond immigrant at this point. So yeah, I am, I am. That's why I'm slightly louder than some of your other British guests. I'm there. Jonathan Thomas (05:21) You're an American now, fully American, yeah. You're easy to find at the BABC parties. So ⁓ why did you guys pick Chicago? Because I mean, lot of British expats don't tend to gravitate towards Chicago. They gravitate towards New York, Florida, or California, I've noticed. Lucy Pask (05:32) Yes, I am. Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, and a lot of our customers are either a lot of our British customers either move here because they fell in love or move here because they fell in love with the country. And I'm obviously the latter. When we were offered a job in Chicago, full confession couldn't have pointed it out on the map. But when we got here, just Unbelievably instantly fell in love with the city. I think it's just one of the best places on the planet. I really do. It's such an incredible combination of skyline and a lake that looks like the channel and reminds me of home. And also there's something about Chicago and a Midwestern attitude that's actually very British, if I'm honest. It's a little self-effacing, fun, open to being humble and funny about yourselves. and rooting for sports teams no matter how madly they do. you know, there's something very familiar about Chicago to me. Jonathan Thomas (06:46) That's a very British trait. Yeah, I don't wax philosophical a lot about Chicago on this podcast because it's not what it's about. But I will say that after London, Chicago is the greatest city in the world. You know, I've lived here my whole life except for a few years in Texas. And ⁓ it's really, it's a proper city. ⁓ And granted, I live an hour away. people in Chicago hate that I say I'm from Chicago because, but my philosophy is that if you get to Chicago TV stations, you're culturally from Chicago. And so I may live in Indiana in a different state, but I get still get NBC and ABC and Fox. And so, you know what? I'm from Chicago and it makes it easy for people to place us too, because, ⁓ you know, we're in the middle. Yeah, exactly. So. Lucy Pask (07:41) It because they were the center of everything, yeah. Jonathan Thomas (07:46) ⁓ So we kind of talked about this actually at the BABC event, what do you, as an expat, are there other things that you miss about written on databases or is it only seasonal? Lucy Pask (08:00) It's funny you say that because I think that's a question that most people that move here get asked a lot, you what do you miss most? And I think my instinct is always to, the correct answer in that instance is always to say my family. But the honest answer, Jonathan, is that I really miss Waitrose and Marks and Spencer. talk to my family on WhatsApp and I can speak to them on a regular basis and they like to come over but you know more often than not I'm craving a trip around Waitrose. You can probably tell people who listen can tell by my accent I'm from the south of England, I grew up in the London suburbs and I am a cliché to my roots and ⁓ it is the first thing I do whenever I go home to visit is pop around to Waitrose, grab some pastries Jonathan Thomas (08:22) right. Lucy Pask (08:49) grab dinner and then I'm home. So that's the honest answer. I'll give you the honest answer. Jonathan Thomas (08:55) Well, yeah, by saying you're a waitress shopper, you're immediately identifying yourself in the hierarchy of British society right there. Lucy Pask (09:01) ⁓ I do also really like, ⁓ so we were talking about London just then. I do miss the unique ⁓ shops of London, food related shops of London. And that is something that is just a very big part of my soul. So I miss Borough Market as was in the 2000s. I miss being able to pop into Fortnum and Mason for a bit of magic. Paxman Whitfield behind it, the cheese shop, Selfridges Food Hall, Harrods to a certain extent, you know, it's all those magical, otherworldly food places that London has within close proximity to itself. You can find them here, but they're not as close together, you know, and I often say that living in America, one of the hardest things is not that things aren't available, it's that it's such... an incredibly large country that you can't find things, get things very easily. So that's one of the things I miss. miss being able to do all the good shops I like in one day. ⁓ That's definitely a part of living in America. Jonathan Thomas (10:16) So what British foods do you particularly miss or find yourself like, man, I really wish I could have that easily without having to make it from scratch. Lucy Pask (10:25) That's exactly what I was going to say. The that you wouldn't want to make from scratch that you can't make from scratch. Actually, one of the reasons that I ended up working with Jolly Posh, because I used to be a customer, and that's how I started out my relationship with them. Because I miss back bacon. ⁓ So being able to get back bacon for anybody who doesn't understand is a very lean cut of bacon. So a traditional cut of bacon in America is a belly cut. So it's what British people call streaky bacon because it goes crisp. Whereas traditional British style bacon is from the loin. So it's a very lean cut. Yes, much more like a hamper with a very distinctive strap of that belly fat on it. Jonathan Thomas (11:10) It's more like a piece of ham. Yeah. Yeah. Lucy Pask (11:19) So it's not Canadian bacon, which is precooked, and it's not American street bacon. It's sort of this wonderful combination of the two. Honestly, when you're in the UK, the whole of the UK, not just England, where I'm from, you're never more than about six foot away from a bacon butty, which is back bacon inside a buttered, because again, British people will butter their sandwiches, a buttered, floury white bap, which is a bread roll. Jonathan Thomas (11:22) Yeah, that's round. No. you Lucy Pask (11:49) and very savory. It's not an enriched American style dinner roll. It's a very savory taste. ⁓ And that's something so simple, but that is one of the things that I did miss before I started ⁓ working at Jolly Posh. And food wise, the other big thing that I think surprised me when I moved here that was even British, I had no idea that sausages were a British food. Jonathan Thomas (12:18) Haha. Lucy Pask (12:19) or British and Irish food. It totally threw me for a loop when we moved here. And I pride myself on being an American file. I said to you, I was ready for a lot of the other differences, but walking into a shop and not being able to find pork sausages was very confusing. And let alone the fact that in the UK, every region has its own special flavor of Jonathan Thomas (12:21) Yeah. Yeah. Lucy Pask (12:47) pork sausage too. So I wasn't just mourning the loss of one food thing, I feel like I was mourning the loss of like several different of my favorite things. ⁓ And over the years at Jolly Push, it's been fun developing each one of those different flavors. So my biggie is Lincolnshire's, which is a very sage, rich, seriously sage-y pork sausage. ⁓ And then the Chipolatas, which are very thin sort of. pork sausage, we'll be talking about those later. In Chicago, funnily enough, you can get them during St. Patrick's Day season, ⁓ but they sort of come and go very quickly and they're not as nice as what we do. Jonathan Thomas (13:28) Well, and you get a lot of Polish sausage and a lot of German sausage, but they're fundamentally different sausages. And our typical breakfast sausage is like a little hunk of meat that doesn't really have much flavor to it. It's just pork and it's, I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Chicken sausage. Yeah. Lucy Pask (13:32) Yes, very different. or chicken. I confused me once. Somebody said, you like some breakfast sausage? I went, absolutely. Jonathan Thomas (13:52) And then when you have a proper breakfast sausage in the UK for the first time, it's almost like a revelation. You're like, I've been doing sausage wrong my whole life. Lucy Pask (14:00) Yeah, I'm glad you felt that way. That is correct. Jonathan Thomas (14:05) to have the correct opinions so it's important. Lucy Pask (14:09) That is a very correct opinion about sausages. Jonathan Thomas (14:11) But then sometimes they're going to acquire taste too, because you do not expect what it tastes like when you eat it. ⁓ But then once you have a few, you're like, I like this. It's very filling. I can see why they have one on every breakfast plate, because it's an important pillar to the meal. ⁓ it's, again, I can't wait for my sausages to get here. Lucy Pask (14:27) Absolutely. I should have brought more feed to this podcast recording. Jonathan Thomas (14:40) So, ⁓ so as we said, you work for Jolly Posh Foods, which means you're surrounded by British food products every day. How did you how did you like you said you were a customer first? How did you end up working for Jolly Posh and did it help with your homesickness for British food? Lucy Pask (14:50) everyday. Has it helped with my homesickness? Not really, but it's definitely helped me share parts of British culture with my family here, my children especially, and delight in seeing them enjoy the same things I enjoyed growing up. And that's something I feel that difference sometimes with my kids, and being able to access this food and share it with them. is one of my greatest joys in life. And actually quite a lot of our customers say that too. You know, it's a way of sharing ⁓ things that we knew growing up with our kids, or if you've married an American with the other side of the family, often to much hilarity in that case, but that is rather wonderful. But being surrounded by British food every day, probably the hardest thing is when Nick has a product in development. That's often when I get the opportunity to test the tester, ⁓ And I cannot begin to tell you how many pork pies I ate this year. Jonathan Thomas (16:07) Hahaha Lucy Pask (16:08) And meat pies. So one of my personal favorite ranges is meat pies. If one was to say pie to an American, they might instinctively think sweet pie. mean, apple pie, obviously, iconic. Apple pie, cherry pie, blueberry pie. Certainly not maybe a chicken pot pie, but not instinctively. Whereas in the UK, in amongst all the pies, it's meat pies, steak and ale, steak and kidney. Party fair if you go to a football game chances are a pie is going to be on offer In fact, a lot of the stadiums compete for who has the best halftime pie, you know, it's it's it's a savory thing So when we were launching the pies, ⁓ and it was at development that we were in the kitchen trying to develop the right flavors I ate a lot of pies but the the other side of that that was so important and you said, you know surrounding yourself with British food is Getting the pastry right on that particular product was an absolute labor of love. It had to be buttery, perfect, crunchy, crisp, golden puff pastry. It could not be anything else. And so whilst the getting the meat and the gravy right inside the pie was relatively straightforward, so many iterations of crust ⁓ over time. And actually at a certain point that did make me quite homesick because really good puff pastry is not something that's widely available. You really have to look hard for it. So that did make me little homesick. Jonathan Thomas (17:48) Well, that's, that's one thing I applaud Nick for is that, ⁓ let's just say the British techs pass through a very discerning bunch. And if it's not right, they won't buy it because they will not buy it. And so that's what's nice about, about, cause Nick will get it right. And he has a fanatical attention to detail. And, and so, yeah, so you know that when you order a steak and ale pie from him, it's going to taste proper. Lucy Pask (18:01) 100 % Perfect adjective, yes. Yes, no, that is, that's 100 % true. And the breads was another labor of love. So one of the things that lot of expats will tell you, a lot of our customers told us is that the bread, the bread in any country that you move to is one of the biggest differences. And that's something you eat, you know, on a fairly daily basis. And if you don't have the right bread, then everything you're making that involves that, whether it's beans on toast or like I saying, a bacon butty, Jonathan Thomas (18:19) So. Yeah. Lucy Pask (18:48) or an afternoon tea sandwich or a sausage back. Everything beyond that is not gonna taste right. So it's one thing to perfect this lovely range of succulent pork sausages, but if you can't find the right bread to put them in, then we knew that we weren't meeting what our customers were looking for. there we go. We've now got a range of petite French baguettes and flour-dusted soft white backs. and now they can get that taste right. It comes down to those, every single part of what they want to eat. Jonathan Thomas (19:24) Yeah, that's the usually the what the number one complaint from British expats is our bread tastes like cake and it's not supposed to. I love British bread, especially British toasty bread for toast. It makes the best toast because it's so dense and it's like, it's a toast as a treat. It's a filling meal. it's that when you have toast here, it's like eating sweet bread cake and it's not very filling because it's mostly sugar. Lucy Pask (19:30) Thank Nope. Yes, it was definitely a surprise to me that it was so different. Jonathan Thomas (19:58) So, well, let's segue into British Christmas food traditions, because this is a Christmas special as we were both on our Christmas jumpers. Lucy Pask (20:07) I'm feeling so festive. This is just the perfect day for this. Jonathan Thomas (20:10) On November 17th, should say as we were recording this so it's that we're forcing the the Christmas festive spirit here Lucy Pask (20:16) I've got my order and I'm putting my tree up. You know, it's serious business. Jonathan Thomas (20:21) Well, you're British you put your trees and stuff and start Christmas season starts November 1st for you guys we still got Thanksgiving to get through Lucy Pask (20:28) That is true, we do have a lovely buffer in America of both Halloween and Thanksgiving, which rather sort of buffers the Christmas season, but yes. Jonathan Thomas (20:38) probably asking a question that's coming later, but do you do your Christmas tree before Thanksgiving or after Thanksgiving? Lucy Pask (20:46) Do you know what? It gets earlier every year because I love it so much. I think deep down, as an American file, I love Thanksgiving. Americans term as the holiday season, which to my mind stretches from Halloween all the way through Thanksgiving, all the way through what one would term as Christmas week, Christmas day week, and into the new year. I just think it's the most wonderful time of year here. Jonathan Thomas (21:10) Yeah. it is. Lucy Pask (21:15) It's such a variety of different things to do and to eat and Chicago, weather's so beautiful. Whereas I feel like in the UK, it's like the kids go back to school and then boom, there we go, Christmas. Let's go. Jonathan Thomas (21:30) So let's talk about British Christmas dinner. ⁓ For Americans who might not know and who didn't listen to the other podcasts I just recorded about British Christmas, ⁓ what does a proper British Christmas dinner look like and how is it different from what Americans do? And what do you do on Christmas? Do you do it the American way or the British way? Lucy Pask (21:53) These are all great questions. Okay, so first of all, I want to say that if your listeners are familiar with a traditional British Sunday roast, then a Christmas dinner, which could be eaten at any time of day, by the way, a Christmas dinner is not dissimilar, but there's a lot more sort of ritual and fanfare, and there's a few iconically Christmas items that are involved. So it is sort of Sunday roast adjacent. And if you think that for a lot of British people, they will have a sit down Sunday roast sort of, you know, every so often, or for some people every Sunday, and that the Sunday roast is similar to, similar to how I feel when I sit down on Thanksgiving. You know, there's a big piece of meat at the center, and then there's the sides. What makes the Christmas dinner different and so special is, like I said, number one, it's the fanfare around it. ⁓ And number two, the side dishes are very iconically Christmas-y. So why don't I take you... Here's what's difficult for your listeners possibly, is that everything I'm about to say, every item on a British Christmas dinner, sounds like something else in America. Jonathan Thomas (23:12) Yeah. Lucy Pask (23:12) So if I was to literally run down the names of everything that's going to be on the table on Christmas day or thereabouts, your listeners are going to be appalled if they're American and it won't make any sense. So I'm going to just run through some of the essentials and translate, you will, what they actually are. Okay. this is, this is, cause I thought about this a lot. And then I remembered that Jonathan Thomas (23:29) Okay, all right. All right, I'm looking forward to this. Lucy Pask (23:38) A lot of the time when you say these things, I've lived here long enough to know that a typical American is thinking of something completely different. Okay, so first of all the meat. The best way to compare this is it's similar to, know, the Thanksgiving dinner is always turkey, it's turkey day. But a Christmas dinner, most people will have a meat joint. Turkey's the most traditional thing to eat, but a lot of people choose to have beef and some people have a ham as well. So that's at the center of the feast. But then there are three fairly universal sides that go with that that are very specifically Christmasy. And the top one is something called pigs in blankets. Now, if I say pigs in blankets to an American, it turns out that a lot of people think of a beef hot dog wrapped in puff pastry or something similar to that. That is not what a pig in a blanket is. Jonathan Thomas (24:31) ⁓ not, no. Lucy Pask (24:32) A pig in a blanket is a pork sausage. So very, very lean, a very, a very fine, succulent, soft pork sausage. Normally a chipolata size, which is a thinner sausage or a cocktail sausage size, wrapped in streaky bacon and then roasted in the oven. And do not underestimate how popular these bad boys are. They, I think over the course of... the whole of the Christmas season, think it's something in the region of 750 million pigs in blankets are eaten in the UK. And on Christmas day itself, I think if I remember rightly, it's somewhere, it's over 120 million of them are gonna be eaten. So whereas the main meat might differ, everybody is sold on the sausages. So again, it's a pork sausage wrapped in streaky, which is whatever you... what American bacon typically is wrapped in streaky bacon. And the best flavor of sausage to have that with is a Lincolnshire. It's a really rich, sagey taste, really flavorful. And one just isn't enough. think by those metrics, think every citizen of the UK eats 13 pigs in blankets on Christmas day. So that is something that not a lot of Americans have heard of. but it's part of the meal that's a pretty important part to most families in the UK. And obviously these days there's vegetarian versions and what have you, but that is a uniquely British food item. The second one is if I was to say to an American, oh, we're having potatoes with our Christmas dinner because of Thanksgiving associated with mashed potatoes. If you served mashed potatoes with a Christmas dinner, I think you'd be kicked out of your family. Christmas dinner is roast potatoes, which there isn't so much an equivalent of in the USA. I don't know at what point the two cultures split on the use of potatoes, but I feel like we took jacket potatoes and roast potatoes and you guys took fries and that sort of thing and hash browns. Yeah. Jonathan Thomas (26:22) Ha in mass. Lucy Pask (26:46) But yeah, so ⁓ obviously, you know, we're the country of bangers and mash, so we do love mashed potato, but it doesn't belong on your plate on Christmas day. That has to be a crisp roast potato, roasted in the oven, goose fat if you're that way inclined. It's really crunchy and crisp on the outside, soft, golden in the middle. So the roast potatoes are the number two, most importantly, voted items on a Christmas dinner. ⁓ And then the third thing, and I stress that this is controversial, but it sort of has to be present, a Brussels sprouts. ⁓ Jonathan Thomas (27:24) Mm. Brussels sprouts are different now. Lucy Pask (27:26) Do know what? I love that when you mention Brussels sprouts this side of 2015, people will tell you that they've genetically modified them to taste better. I'm not sure I believe that. Jonathan Thomas (27:39) I won't eat them. My wife loves them. She serves them. I won't eat them. I don't even like the way they smell. can't handle it. can't. Yeah. Lucy Pask (27:44) But they have to be there. Brussels sprouts are so culturally connected to British Christmas that several supermarkets over the years have focused their Christmas advertising on a little sprout. A sprout is connected specifically, you know, I said earlier on, know, how does it differ on Christmas to a typical Sunday roast? And there's something about a sprout that's very specifically related to Christmas. So even if you don't eat them, they have to be somehow present. We actually, I actually know somebody who says that one of their Christmas traditions is that they all have to eat one sprout. That's the only reason they have them at the table is it's like, the annual eating of the sprout, you know, and they all, they all make a joke out of the fact that they don't like them. And some people love them. A lot of people like to serve them with things like bacon. So again, going back to that lean back bacon. sort of nice hammy flavor in there or roast them in a slightly different way. But the joke is, you know, you put your sprouts on the day before and boil them to death. And that's a well-worn British Christmas joke about sprouts. So yeah, so those are the three main ones. Then beyond that, this is where it starts to get interesting and specific to what your family love to have on their Christmas dinner. So, ⁓ and at that point, I have to tell you about my... my favorite things to have on Christmas dinner because, you know, there's a lot of people who say they love to have cauliflower cheese, which is sort of mac and cheese, but with cauliflower, or they love to have things like certain kinds of stuffing. So bread stuffing, again, often with pork sausages in the mix, pork meat in the mix. But for my family, we have to have Yorkshire puddings. And when I say pudding to an American, you're thinking about custard. Jonathan Thomas (29:40) Yeah. No. Lucy Pask (29:41) And this is pudding. The word pudding is one of my favorite American, you know, cultural differences when it comes to food, because in England and in the UK, pudding can mean, when you say you're about to serve someone some pudding, it can be generic for the last meal, last part of the meal that you're eating, the sweet bit, or it could be a Yorkshire pudding or a Christmas pudding. which are two very different things, but neither of which are custard, which is what they would be in America. So I think one of the big confusions, certainly when I'm talking about Jolly Posh online on social media, when you write about Yorkshire puddings, we do get a lot of comments from Americans saying, I don't see the pudding. Because a Yorkshire pudding is effectively this wonderful, fluffy, golden, Jonathan Thomas (30:16) Yeah. Lucy Pask (30:36) A lot of Americans can call them popovers, but imagine like a giant popover that you pour gravy into the middle of. And it's just, for my family at least, one of the most important parts of any roast dinner, including Christmas Day. Jonathan Thomas (30:50) Yeah. Mrs. Angle-topia has gotten quite skilled at making Yorkshire puddings and she doesn't like to do it because it's a lot of work and it takes a lot of you gotta get the timing right and it's but it's worth it. They're very good. Lucy Pask (31:05) And you know, and it's really interesting you should say that because a lot of people are quite intimidated by the idea of making Yorkshire puddings. And one of the reasons is, is because when you move to America, I think we've talked about what's so different in terms of food, but you know, you've got to factor into the mix that flour is different, water is different, the milk is different, not so fatty, the eggs are different, you know, they're kept in the fridge, not outside. All those nuances mean that, Certainly when I moved here and I was a dab hand at Yorkshire puddings when we moved here, it took me a long time to change the recipe to be able to use American ingredients to make them properly. Because if you don't get them all fluffy and puffed up, they're like these horrible little biscuit hockey pucks and then that's just not worth eating. going back to how at Jolly Posh we're always thinking about how can we make sure people have a true taste of home. We used to get so many comments about people wanting tips about how to make Yorkshire puddings that Nick actually put together a batter mix that works and a set of tips and tricks and a video on how to make them that works. And here's the kicker, a tin that is the right depth to get the right puff because you can't necessarily just get it with a cupcake pan. And in England, they have Yorkshire pudding pans. But if you don't have one of those here, you know, we now sell a kit with the right size tins, with the right batter mix, it's actually gonna rise, it's gonna work, and instructions so that, you can pull your Yorkshire puddings out of the oven and make it look like you're the expert that you are, you know, without worrying about it. So yeah, I'm a huge, like Yorkshire puddings, and my kids love them too now, so they're addicted. Of all the things I've introduced them to, Yorkshire puddings is a mainstay here, especially at Christmas. Jonathan Thomas (33:04) So what else is on the Chris's table that's not negotiable for you? Lucy Pask (33:07) Non-negotiable things at the Christmas table for main course. I think it's worth noting, and again, American listeners will misunderstand me when I say that Christmas dinner starts with crackers. But I'm not talking about crackers that you, yes, you know. You've got to pull a cracker. I don't know, they have started to show up in America. Jonathan Thomas (33:33) Yeah, you can usually find them. Lucy Pask (33:35) But I don't feel they're considered as essential, they're just a nice to have. I honestly don't think I could eat a Christmas dinner if I wasn't wearing a paper crown. I've never tried it and I don't want to. No, it's just odd. I can't imagine eating a Christmas dinner without a paper crown, which is, you know, for anybody uninitiated in the ways of crackers, you pull a cracker, there's a snap, and inside is a terrible joke, a small toy. Jonathan Thomas (33:38) No. It's just not allowed. Lucy Pask (34:05) and a paper crown that you should wear on your head for the rest of the meal. ⁓ And it's just a wonderful tradition that's not going anywhere and it starts the whole meal off. So those are essential. ⁓ And then for our family, have to have gravy. And then at that point, we do sneak some more American things onto the table, certain mustards. and that sort of thing. But on the whole, are the essential elements. Jonathan Thomas (34:40) So I was gonna ask, so is your, do you stick to the typical British Christmas dinner but with little American adjustments or do you have any major American adjustments to your Christmas dinner? Lucy Pask (34:53) No, there are no major American adjustments to Christmas Day. There are some British adjustments to Thanksgiving. Jonathan Thomas (35:00) well, let's talk about that. Yeah, let's talk about Thanksgiving. What are you doing next week? Lucy Pask (35:05) Well, this is a great segue into something else I know you're going to talk about, which is Christmas puddings. Let's talk about Christmas pudding. Again, not custard, but also not a Yorkshire pudding. So a different type of pudding. So like a plum pudding or a Christmas pudding. Okay, Christmas puddings, again, a total food icon of British Christmas. Jonathan Thomas (35:11) Yeah, that's the next question. So let's dive right in. Lucy Pask (35:31) If you're not going to eat a Christmas pudding at Christmas, because you don't like that sort of thing, you're probably going to eat something that's Christmas pudding shaped, or you're going to have a Christmas pudding decoration, or it's going to be present somehow, even if you're not eating it. And one of the things about a Christmas pudding is the tradition with a Christmas pudding, it used to be a steamed pudding. I mean, I don't think I've ever not microwaved one, but you, flambé it, you set fire to it. You pop it on a plate, heat up. heat up some alcohol and set fire to it. So you've got these wonderful blue flames heading into the sky and if you're brave enough you carry it into the other room, a flame and it's just brilliant. Set all the fire alarms off, it's magnificent. And a little while ago we started as a family ⁓ taking it to, we were invited to, an American family who sort of took pity on us I think and invited me and my husband over to take part in their Thanksgiving. ⁓ And we thought, well, what can we take? Why don't we take a Christmas pudding? We'll set fire to it and it'll make them laugh. And now we have to do it every year. So it's actually part of our Thanksgiving tradition that we go to this other family's house and set fire to a pudding. And again, not everyone eats it. Christmas puddings is one of those things that has come in and out of favor over the years. But I think the most important thing about a Christmas pudding is that Jonathan Thomas (36:41) Ha ha ha ha. Lucy Pask (36:55) You have have it hot and it's what you have it with that matters. So custard, cream, custard, cream, whipped cream, and the cream in the UK is so many more varieties than here. You know, I think if I say cream, you're an automatic thought is whipping cream or the cream in a can. But you know, there can be an entire aisle of, you know, Guernsey and Jersey cream, know, double whipped cream. single cream, you know, the cream imported from France, know, cream that's so thick you can stand a spoon in it, you know, so really nice cream. And then this thing called brandy butter. Are you familiar with brandy butter? It is literally what it sounds like. It is brandy, mixed with butter and icing sugar. Jonathan Thomas (37:38) Mm-mm. Lucy Pask (37:46) But the sort of not American icing sugar. American icing sugar is very very powdery. is more of a royal icing type stuff. So it's literally what it sounds like. It's just another vehicle for booze on Christmas day. But some of that on a Christmas pudding is good. yeah, Christmas puddings, I just think they're such an iconic part of the day. Like I said, even if you don't like a Christmas pudding, it's gonna be there somewhere. Jonathan Thomas (38:12) So on the subject of desserts, let's talk about mince pies. Most Americans have no idea what a mince pie is. Explain what a mince pie is and how there's not actually meat in it. Lucy Pask (38:25) Again, yes, crackers are not crackers. Yorkshire pudding, not custard. Mince pie, nothing to do with mince, it's a fruit pie. It's a spiced fruit pie. ⁓ I think ⁓ they're pretty hotly debated because I think there's a strong consensus that if you're gonna eat a mince pie, it needs to be homemade mince pie. So the stores will sell big jars of various versions of mince meat. which is raisins, mixed fruit, spices, ⁓ it's sort of somewhere in between a pickle and a chutney, but it's sweet. ⁓ And sometimes it has, depending on where you buy it, sometimes it has nuts in it, cherries, mixed peel, which is not something that's readily available in the States. And then, yeah, and then popped into some homemade pastry. and then cooked in the oven, little ones, always little, size of your hand, and then very hotly debated about whether people enjoy them or not. But again, they're omnipresent during Christmas. And also actually, you have reminded me, one of the key food differences at this time of year that really showcases the differences on each side of the pond is what kids leave out for... Father Christmas or Santa. And in the UK, they all leave out a mince pie, a carrot for Rudolph, and maybe a drop of whiskey. And when I moved to the States, I was kind of stunned that it's a cookie and milk. So I said, leave out some cookies and milk for Santa. I'm like, what's he gonna do with that? Where's his drama whiskey and his tasty mince pie? Jonathan Thomas (40:11) I was gonna get through the night though, a lot of drink. Lucy Pask (40:13) Well, exactly. Well, to be fair, maybe he's sick of them by the time he's flying over this way. So maybe it does work. But yeah, they're really, they're, again, it's one of those iconic Christmas foods that people don't necessarily enjoy, but it has to be there. Jonathan Thomas (40:29) Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of mince pies myself. I think for an American palette, they're an acquired taste. ⁓ Mrs. Anglotopia has gotten great at making mince pies. Of course, hers are very American. They're too large. ⁓ But she's had to source the ingredients. oftentimes, she pre-buys it when we're in the UK, because you can't find mixed peel here. What is that? Lucy Pask (40:56) mixed pale and white. Jonathan Thomas (40:57) Yeah, when people ask me what does a mince pie taste like, say it tastes like Christmas. That's the best way to just, that's the best way to describe it. It tastes like Christmas. ⁓ it's yeah, it's similar to mold. It's similar to mold wine in that sense. It tastes like Christmas. Lucy Pask (41:02) Yes. It really does. It smells like Christmas too. It's funny what... That's exactly what I was about to say. It really is those spices. There's a really key, and again, I have to, I am very aware that, you know, obviously I've only really experienced Midwestern Christmases. So I don't have much of a sense of whether this is universal, but it's always surprised me that there is considered to be a baking season in the States. You know, there is a fall season that is, you know, Jonathan Thomas (41:25) Yes. Yeah. Lucy Pask (41:40) pumpkin spice and pecan pies and that's when you bake. Whereas in the UK you bake all year round, that's why our biggest TV show is called The Bake Off. That's not a seasonal tent, we'll put our ovens on any time of the year to cook a nice, you know, Bakewell tart or a Victoria sponge or biscuits. And you know, Christmas in the same vein, aren't, that's one of the things that people pride themselves on making. themselves as making a few mince pies. Jonathan Thomas (42:13) Yeah, that's one of reasons why we always we all wonder why we're 1015 pounds heavier in January is because we had a baking season. That's why. To be fair, we were at Costco yesterday and we stocked up on butter and eggs for all the baking that's going to happen in the next next few weeks. Lucy Pask (42:20) Yeah. It is strange to be a British person moving, again, a difference between the food that I did not expect. What was that aspect of seasonal ingredients? Not being able to get a good puff pastry, I know I keep mentioning puff pastry, but it's one of those items. Not being able to get that readily available in general stores all year round was quite a surprise to me. And likewise, know, things like the differences between things, simple things like icing sugar, you know, it's a surprising difference that you can only get some things certain times a year. Jonathan Thomas (43:10) So when you first moved to America and you had your first Christmas and you were figuring out how to do your Christmas dinner, was it just an ounce of frustration? Because I'm kind of reminded of we're both members of an expat group on Facebook. I'm not an expat, obviously. I just like to hear. I like to watch the chatter between expats. there's one of the hottest topics of debate is finding parsnips. Lucy Pask (43:32) You're a weirdo. Jonathan Thomas (43:38) It's not it's a meme in the group. It's hilarious, but Because you can't find parsnips anywhere in which I don't mind. I hate parsnips, but ⁓ So was it was it like hunting for hunting for rare things trying to make your first Christmas dinner? Lucy Pask (43:41) It is a meme. I think the joke about parsnips is that they are actually readily available. think, God, you've reminded me. the... sort of get... Eventually after you've moved here, you get in the mindset of... Other things are so hard to find that you stop looking. You just assume things are hard to find. Parsnips are pretty readily available. The weird ones are marzipan, which is almond paste, if you will. I can get a toothpaste tube size of almond paste from Whole Foods or what have you, but in the UK they sell them, it's like blocks the size of a piece of Semtex. I'm always worried when I bring back a kilogram of the stuff that I'm gonna get my bag searched, because they sell it in huge lumps because it's involved in so many of our baked goods. So marzipan is a big one. Jonathan Thomas (44:39) Okay. Lucy Pask (44:51) A good clotted cream has been another one. Like I've talked about dairy already, but that's a really hard thing to have found previously. And certain spices and things like that. But I think what happens is over time is you either find a substitute, you find a dupe, or you just find an alternative and just sort of give up on things. Jonathan Thomas (45:13) Big Do. Have a couple and make do, right? Lucy Pask (45:18) Well, the thing, actually, you know, talked about, you know, what was your first Christmas like? And full disclosure, messed the whole thing up. You know why? Two reasons. Number one, Christmas Eve in the UK is one of the biggest nights out of the year. It is a full on festival of going out to the pub. staggering home or possibly to midnight mass and just enjoying a night out. Christmas, again, this is the Midwest and I'm out here in the suburbs. All the pubs and bars were shut at 10, if that late. And that threw me for a loop. And then the other thing that confused me was that was when I found out that one of the most popular things to eat on Christmas day in... the United States is a takeaway, a takeout, a Chinese food or something similar. So I actually, yeah, so yeah. Well, and so my first Christmas, I didn't have a Christmas dinner because I couldn't get one. Because I think for a lot of British expats that live here, and if you're a British expat or if you know somebody who's British that just moved here, you tell them to get their ingredients now, this side of Thanksgiving. Jonathan Thomas (46:13) Yeah, Chinese food. Yeah, see you on the other end of open. Lucy Pask (46:39) because inexplicably a lot of it will have gone by Christmas Day because nobody's going to have two turkeys. Well, no judgment if you are, if you get a turkey now because there's a really good chance you'll be like me walking around a week before Christmas Day going, how come there's no turkeys anywhere? it's because it's not a thing. So don't do what I did on my first Christmas. Ever since then, I've been very, very organized. So I've already got my order in. So I've already ordered, and obviously through Jolly Posh So I've already got in the freezer ready, full English breakfast for New Year, to enjoy a New Year. Lincoln's Chichipalatas for the pigs in blankets. Got the Yorkshire pudding tins ready to go. I've got bacon to put with the Brussels sprouts, which we do enjoy in this house. And a whole host of other things that I'll be using. in the stuffings, but I've got it all now so that I don't have to think about it between now and Christmas Day. Jonathan Thomas (47:41) Yeah, we did something similar yesterday for Thanksgiving. like, let's just get everything sorted out of the way. Cause it's, you you don't want to be anywhere near a grocery store on Wednesday before Thanksgiving. Lucy Pask (47:55) Well, funnily enough, if you're talking about food traditions, one of the more modern food traditions in the UK is the annual booking of the slot at the supermarket, like the delivery slot. Jonathan Thomas (48:05) ⁓ Yeah, you were telling me about this at the party. This is hilarious. Lucy Pask (48:08) It is so funny. It is treated with the same reverence and panic as booking Coachella tickets or Ears Tour tickets. And I wish I was exaggerating, you know, you've got because you're, know, ordering your entire Christmas dinner, you know, delivery is one thing, but that's not necessarily as prolific in the UK. So what happens is you have to book a specific time slot. for Waitrose or Tesco's or whoever to come and drop your stuff over. And if you don't book that slot, you're gonna have to go and do the shopping yourself or worse, they'll have run out of So getting into the app and booking your slot has become like an annual tradition for a lot of members of my family. So I can't talk today. I've got to book my Christmas slot. And I think it was like, I think they opened them last week, two weeks ago. So it's early, you know, you've got to get in there quick. So, that's it. Jonathan Thomas (49:05) Standing in a virtual line is the most British thing I can imagine. Lucy Pask (49:08) Thank Yes. That's different. Jonathan Thomas (49:13) That's really funny. ⁓ Okay, well, we got to start wrapping this up. why don't... ⁓ Yes, this week could go on for hours. ⁓ But we want to keep in mind this is only an hour long and people don't want to hear us drone on and on. So we're gonna... Lucy Pask (49:21) Oh no, I've been watching you all day. Would you want me to tell you about Boxing Day Picky Bits? Jonathan Thomas (49:38) Yes. Okay, let's talk about, let's talk about, yeah, let's talk about Boxing Day because I, Americans have no idea what Boxing Day is. And, it's such a critical part of the British holiday season because it's another day off. A lot of Americans will have to go back to work on the 26th. ⁓ And so they're not used to the idea that they'd have another day off. But when we did Christmas in the UK, ⁓ Lucy Pask (49:41) Should we end on box today? Jonathan Thomas (50:05) in 2013, we were invited by some friends to a Boxing Day lunch and this was a whole new cultural experience for us having the leftovers from the previous day. So yeah, please talk about Boxing Day. Lucy Pask (50:17) Okay, so let's talk about Boxing Day. and actually this year, because Christmas is on a Thursday, Boxing Day is going to be on a Friday. So it really does inhabit that sort of Black Friday space. So nobody knows, I'm not a historian, no one really knows why it's called Boxing Day. I'm sure someone else cleverer than me will tell you it's from 13th century, whatever. But the key thing about Boxing Day is there's three things. Number one, you eat leftovers. Jonathan Thomas (50:33) There's lots of reasons. Lucy Pask (50:42) But you sort of put them out and some people call it picky bits. So you sort of pick at them. Have a nice pork pie, some pickle, chutneys, mustards, bread, mayonnaise, all the meat from the day before. If you've got some leftover sausages, you can make something wonderful called bubble and squeak. Make some little sprouts and things. But it's picky bits. Just put it out and nibble away. And that's what Boxing Day's about. And then the other thing you always have to make sure you do on Boxing Day is go for a nice walk. That's not a hike, different things. A nice walk and a hike are different things. A nice walk in the UK would be a wander around nice woods, get some fresh air, maybe go to a pub on Boxing Day and that's it. And then the other thing you're doing on Boxing Day is it's football all day. So it inhabits a similar space to Black Friday because of all the sport. Jonathan Thomas (51:19) Yeah. Lucy Pask (51:38) and because of the everybody's stuffed, but with added Britishisms of eating the leftovers proudly. And then that carries on through, because then the week after that really is sort of, I think, what is someone called it? Crimbo limbo or twixt, or twixtmas. Jonathan Thomas (51:56) Yeah, that's the time of the year I watched the Lord of the Rings trilogy because there's nothing going on. So, yeah. Lucy Pask (52:04) Perfection. Yeah, and that's and then you sort of carry on you sort of eke out this food and then and then at that point you see you're making your way through one of the things that British people have at Christmas which is tins of chocolates which if you went to a British supermarket right now, I cannot stress there are pallets pallets to the ceiling of tins of quality street celebrations ⁓ and Cadbury heroes which are tins of chocolate sweets up to the ceiling and Jonathan Thomas (52:19) quality street. Lucy Pask (52:34) you know, by the time it gets to Boxing Day, you're picking your way through the ones no one wanted the day before. Watching the films on the telly, watching the Christmas versions of the shows you like, Christmas Dancing with the Stars and Christmas EastEnders, and then working your way through the picky bits. So that's an important tradition food-wise. Jonathan Thomas (52:51) There we go. Yeah, we've, we started doing boxing day lunch here at Anglotopia Towers. ⁓ we'll have the leftovers, but we'll, we'll, what we'll do is we'll make sausage rolls. Mrs. Anglotopia makes sausage rolls from scratch. They're really good. we'll get some really nice British cheeses, ⁓ pickle, all the good accoutrement have basically British charcuterie for the day. And then we'll, and then we'll do a bonfire outside while we eat all this stuff in the cold. it's the. Lucy Pask (53:23) action. Jonathan Thomas (53:23) Yeah, it's cold and slightly miserable, but it could be more British, right? Yeah. And so, yeah. And so this year, and this is where we get back to the sponsored bit, this year we bought pork pies from Jolly Posh. So that's going to be saving those for our Boxing Day lunch. So cannot wait to try those. Lucy Pask (53:28) It's 100%. You're absolutely nailing it. getting outside is important. A proper pork ⁓ pie is peak boxing day because it's one of those items and also the way ours are different is such a holy grail of objects to find in the United States because you have to have it cooked. So it's no good if it's just frozen. So the ones that we sell are ready to bake. So the pastry is raw, ready to bake. and after you've baked it, it's a long bake, you're going to bake it, cool it and then you're going to add gelatin. So this is a proper pork pie. So you're going to add the gelatin and let it set. that, slight big wedge of that on Boxing Day, perfection. Bit of pickle. Jonathan Thomas (54:31) big chunk of cheddar cheese. ⁓ I'm looking more forward to Boxing Day than Christmas here. So explain to the listeners. if they want to order from this is Jolly Posh's busiest time of year. was it was a miracle I got you to be on the podcast because you guys are so busy. when Lucy Pask (54:34) Bit of feta cheese, yeah. Yeah, you wouldn't be alone in that. ⁓ Jonathan Thomas (54:56) What should people keep in mind when they're ordering for the Christmas or for Boxing Day? What are some order deadlines? How far in advance should they order? Can the stuff be frozen and saved? Give us the rundown there. Lucy Pask (55:10) I'm so glad you asked. The answer is yes to everything. The nice thing about the fact that we ship everything frozen is that the earlier you order it, the better. And you can use it whenever you need to. There's no sort of pressure to sort of when the package arrives. So we ship in these really wonderful eco cooler boxes. They're environmentally friendly, but they're going to keep everything freezing cold. even if you're in Florida, even if you're in California. So I think that's one of the things that a lot of customers worry about is, you know, I'm shipping to one of the hot states. Is my food going to be okay? And my answer is yes. And again, you know, can, if you wander through the reviews, one of the things that people are most excited about is the fact that the shipping is so good. But yes, order early, or order now. Christmas is on a Thursday this year, so we won't be shipping that week. Jonathan Thomas (56:02) You Lucy Pask (56:07) Sorry, not that we won't be shipping that week, but it won't arrive. It might not arrive for Christmas Day. ⁓ Just because of two-day shipping. Shipping frozen food is a challenge. You have to make sure it doesn't ship over a weekend. So that's why we encourage people to get their orders in soon. And ⁓ I think the week after Thanksgiving is going to be our busiest week. Because that's when people will really be planning what they're going to be eating on the day. and they're gonna be really inspired by what they ate or what they didn't eat on Thanksgiving. And then also the nice thing is we get a lot of orders from the UK of people sending care packages, which is just lovely. So we get, yeah, it is really nice. So we get a lot of people putting in orders. So the other thing that listeners could do is if they are British or if they've got British friends is drop a really massive hint that that's what they want for Christmas. Get someone else to send it. Jonathan Thomas (56:38) Yeah. No, it was nice. Lucy Pask (57:04) We do have gift cards too, exceptionally popular this time of year. ⁓ But yeah, then like I said, the final deadline's coming up, so order the week after Thanksgiving if you want to make sure you get everything in time with no stress. That's what I would recommend. Jonathan Thomas (57:20) All right. You heard that folks get your orders in the link will be in our show notes and what a delightful conversation and a delicious one. This was a, I skipped lunch to record this episode. So now I'm really hungry and I really want British British food, but my Jolly Posh order isn't here yet. So I'm going to have to, I'm going to have to have something else. So thank you so much for joining us on the Anglotopia podcast, Lucy. ⁓ it's wonderful to hear from someone who is living the expat experience and helping other British expats. Lucy Pask (57:29) to go. Alright. ⁓ pleasure. Jonathan Thomas (57:50) maintain those important food traditions that connect them to home. So for everyone listening, if you're a British ex-pat in America or an American who loves British stuff, you can order authentic British foods from JollyPoshFoods.com. There's a link in the show notes. They ship across America and carry everything from proper sausages and bacon to afternoon tea scones and clotted cream and all those British essentials you simply can't find in American grocery stores. Jolly Posh Foods has been a long time partner of Anglotopia and we genuinely believe in what they're doing to help British expats and anglophiles access authentic British foods. And I'm not saying that just because they're paying me too. So if you enjoyed this episode, please like, subscribe and leave a comment wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you'd like early access to new episodes and help support independent long form writing about British history, culture, and travel, please consider joining the Friends of Anglotopia Club. Link is in the show notes. And whether you're celebrating Christmas in Britain or America this year, we hope your table includes all the British foods that make the holiday feel like home. So thank you again, Lucy, and thank you for listening and happy Christmas. Lucy Pask (58:56) Thank you. Happy Christmas.