Jonathan Thomas (00:12) Welcome back to the Anglotopia podcast. The podcasts are people who love British travel, history, and culture. I'm your host, Jonathan Thomas. And today we're going to the dogs, but in the best possible way. My guest is Agnes Stamp, the author of Country Life's Book of Dogs, a brilliant, a beautiful new coffee table book from Rizzoli celebrating Britain's most beloved aristocratic canine companions. And I have an advanced copy right here. It is gorgeous. From foxhounds and stately kennels to dachshunds perched on velvet cushions, this book is a love letter to the dogs that have trotted through the pages of country life for over a century. Agnes is not only a writer and historian with a deep love of the British countryside, but someone who has carefully traced the fascinating stories behind the breeds that have shaped and been shaped by the British aristocratic life. Today, we'll explore everything from royal corgis and trechilies and spaniels to long forgotten breeds like the tweed water spaniel and the turnspit dog. We'll also talk about how dogs became status symbols, how they've been immortalized in photography and painting, and what their enduring presence says about Britain's national character. Whether you're a dog lover or a history buffer, both are in for a treat. Welcome, Agnes! Agnes Stamp (01:23) Hello, thank you for having me. Jonathan Thomas (01:26) Thank so much for being on the Ingotopia Podcast. Now I gotta introduce my other two guests on the podcast today. Lady Cooper, come here doggies. I'm in a different location than I normally am because I wanted to have the doggies. Come on, come on Cooper, come on, come on, come on. ⁓ This is Cooper. He's a King Charles Cavalier Spaniel. Agnes Stamp (01:35) Yeah. Ha ha ha. Hello, Cooper. Jonathan Thomas (01:52) And there's another camera shy one in here somewhere who will not come on camera. So we'll just have to go forward without her. Agnes Stamp (01:58) Now I had a question for you which was what's your favourite breed but I think you've just answered it. Jonathan Thomas (02:01) What's that? Well actually, sorry guys, I'll have to close their ears. This is not my favorite breed. ⁓ These are my wife's preferred breed. My favorite breed is the Irish Setter and I'm hoping to get my own Irish Setter within the next year. But I do love these Cavaliers. are the calmest, loveliest, friendliest dogs. They're idiots and they're so lovable. What's your favorite dog? Agnes Stamp (02:18) ⁓ lovely. very nice. No. And so regal. ⁓ My favourite dog? Well, ⁓ I mean, I love all dogs, ⁓ of course. ⁓ I think it's a prerequisite for working at Country Life. You need to be obsessed with dogs and horses. ⁓ But ⁓ in my adult life, I've had a Staffordshire Bull Terrier and also ⁓ French Bulldogs. Jonathan Thomas (02:39) Yes. Yeah. ⁓ okay. Lovely breeds. Very English breeds as well. all right. So let's start at the beginning here. ⁓ Why did you decide to write a book about Britain's aristocratic and historical dogs? What drew you to the subject? Agnes Stamp (03:05) Yeah. Well, ⁓ as I love dogs, ⁓ and ⁓ I know I'm not alone in that, ⁓ the British absolutely adore their animals. And in this instance, ⁓ the editor in chief asked if I'd like to take on the project and I put my hat in the ring because I couldn't think of a nicer subject to write about. Jonathan Thomas (03:42) right? Who doesn't love dogs? Agnes Stamp (03:45) Yeah, exactly. Jonathan Thomas (03:48) And I mean, I'm sure we'll get to this but I mean it's not like country life doesn't have loads of material on on dogs, right? Agnes Stamp (03:56) Exactly, exactly. So the magazine was founded in 1897. And, you know, from day dot, we've run dog editorial, there was a regular column that ran called notes from a kennel that later became kennel notes. And, you know, and more more recently, you know, we run, you know, big features about specific breeds. ⁓ So yeah, mean, dogs have really been part of the editorial makeup since the beginning of the magazine. Jonathan Thomas (04:34) Yeah, and for my listeners who aren't familiar with Country Life magazine, it is a magazine you definitely want to check out. is a little weekly encyclopedia of Britishness. I mean, it is filled with articles about stately homes, historical properties, architecture, art, history, and... Agnes Stamp (04:55) and dogs. Jonathan Thomas (04:56) Alright, so tell us a little bit about your background as a writer and researcher and how did you end up at Country Life and doing this project after your editor in chief was like, do want to do this? Agnes Stamp (05:07) ⁓ Sure, so I studied fashion history at university and I very quickly, well, while I was at university, I made sure I was doing work experience placements on, know, magazines and one of those magazines actually was Country Life. I found my earliest published credit recently, which was dated June the third 2004, which seems, yeah, a long time ago. But professionally, I've worked for country life in various guises since 2013, both on staff and, and freelance projects. And, yeah, I mean, I know the brand very well. I'm very familiar with the archive and writing features is a substantial part of writing features is the research process. So yeah, I mean, I've spent a lot of time in the Country Life Archive. Jonathan Thomas (06:15) And so, is this your first book or have you done books before? Agnes Stamp (06:20) No, this is my first book. ⁓ Up until this point, ⁓ I ⁓ have only ⁓ written features for magazines. Jonathan Thomas (06:30) Well, congratulations on your first book publication. It's quite an achievement. and it's what a beautiful first go. mean, the book is beautiful. I'm going to say that a lot in this podcast. I love the big coffee table books that Rizzoli puts out. They just, they're amazing. ⁓ Which last year we covered the country life 150 book by John Goodall and that was beautiful as well. yeah. Agnes Stamp (06:31) Thank you, thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ yeah, mean, amazing. That was a really amazing effort. Jonathan Thomas (07:01) Yeah, and this will make an excellent addition to it. And it will, and it's actually the same form factor. So it will, it will sit nicely in the stack of fancy country books on your coffee table. ⁓ So how would you say your relationship with the magazine influenced the direction or tone of the book? Agnes Stamp (07:03) Yeah, it will. Perfect. So the book, as I say, was almost entirely researched in the Country Life archives. So it's very much a reflection of how the magazine covered the subject matter. ⁓ You could almost say that the book is a of abridged version of all our dog content since 1897. Yeah, ⁓ so with that in mind, I've kind of tried to keep the tone of the magazine in the book. Jonathan Thomas (07:49) Nice. Well good, because then that means people will know what to expect when they open it up. So did you grow up with dogs yourself and how did that shape your perspective writing this book as a dog lover? Agnes Stamp (08:00) ⁓ Well, actually, I was desperate for a puppy as a child. ⁓ it wasn't to be. ⁓ We had a menagerie of ⁓ rabbits and guinea pigs and hamsters and cats, which ⁓ looking back probably wasn't the wisest combination. But there we are. ⁓ But ⁓ yeah, in my adult life, I've kept dogs. A Staffordshire Bull Terrier called Titan, who you'll actually see in the ⁓ Jonathan Thomas (08:04) have, are we all. Agnes Stamp (08:30) the Staffordshire Billterio chapter, I think he's on page 169. later, I had a rescue, a rescue dog called Betsy, who was an elderly French bulldog who I took on to provide pallet of care to. And she was very special to me. She's also in there on page 296. There's Titan. Jonathan Thomas (08:56) Is that them? Yep, beautiful. Agnes Stamp (08:58) Yeah, the Titans on the right. Yep. ⁓ And then also, ⁓ my sister's dog is in there on page 299, little Leo and the daisies. So, ⁓ so yeah, those are those are my adult adult life dogs. And I suppose that I suppose that I you know, I took particular pleasure in writing up breeds that I was in, you know, I've been intimately familiar with because ⁓ I recognize the confirmation and the personality traits that have so lyrically described by country life. ⁓ Frenchies were described as being full of courage yet with clown-like qualities. And I certainly know the Frenchies in my life are both ridiculous, but also really know their own mind. ⁓ There was a lovely description of what Staffordshire Bull Terrier should look like. They said that Staffies should have a tail like a old fashioned pump handle and Titan really did. Actually, one little anecdote that I touch on in the book was a letter to the editor. ⁓ about, I think it was about 1962 that spoke of a Staffordshire Bilteria called Fireman who really enjoyed digging up and removing stones from a loch in Scotland. And it made me laugh because Titan used to do exactly the same. Any opportunity to carry rocks, he took it and I was frequently telling him off because I was worried about him damaging his teeth. Jonathan Thomas (10:42) Yeah, the things dogs love to pick up is... Agnes Stamp (10:45) Exactly. Jonathan Thomas (10:47) most random objects. This guy loves to pick up old corn cobs out of the yard that we give to the chickens. And I can't figure out why he has a taste for corn, but he does. Maybe it's because he lives in Indiana. I don't know. Agnes Stamp (10:53) Does he? He's very relaxed on camera. ⁓ Jonathan Thomas (11:04) Do you... He is. He is a pretty chill guy. The other Cavalier, she's very high strung and he's very chill. Isn't that? He's a good boy. ⁓ Now, is there... You mentioned all the dogs you had growing up and as an adult. Now, is there a dream dog you haven't had yet and that you would like to get? Agnes Stamp (11:26) Well, ⁓ as it happens, I'm very keen on bull terriers, which are also a favourite of the Princess Royal here, Princess Anne. ⁓ And the miniature bull terrier actually sits on our ⁓ vulnerable native breeds list. So I wouldn't mind. I wouldn't mind one of those, I must say. Jonathan Thomas (11:37) Okay. So ⁓ the book is organized by dog groups, hounds, terriers, gundogs, et cetera, but it's also steeped in cultural history. So how did you balance this breed-specific detail with the broader historical context of dog breeding and history? Agnes Stamp (11:53) Mm. Sure. Well, I mulled over how to present the material for some time. ⁓ I initially wondered about thematic chapters, ⁓ know, know, dogs in art or dogs in literature or, you know, dogs in country houses. ⁓ But with a book like this, I really think that readers will just want to look up their favourite breed and and see how country life has covered them. ⁓ So actually the Royal Kennel Clubs grouping system seemed the perfect way to organise the material. you know, of course for each breed, I touch on art and literature and there are historical anecdotes, ⁓ but it's just organised in a kind of a way that I think readers will enjoy accessing. Jonathan Thomas (12:57) And you're right, the first thing I did when I got the book was look up the setters. So you're right. So what role do you think dogs have played in shaping British aristocratic identity, both in the country, states and in public life? Agnes Stamp (13:02) There you go. Well, mean, historically, all dogs sort of served a purpose, know, hounds and terriers were, you know, used for hunting and mastiffs were guard dogs and you know, there were carriage dogs like Dalmatians. And, you know, we don't use dogs to the same extent anymore, but their legacy remains. For example, there are a great kennels at an estate here called Goodwood, ⁓ which by the way had ⁓ heating before the main house did. ⁓ And they, you know, ⁓ house the Duke of Richmond's prize Foxhounds. And you know, today, ⁓ that building is a I think it's a private members club. So you know, the legacy that you know, the architectural legacy ⁓ lives on. ⁓ And then you've got I just briefly touched on mastiffs there, they're interesting because they're really ⁓ ancient breeds and they appear in Shakespeare's Henry V. ⁓ They're described as ⁓ having unmatchable courage. ⁓ And I think it was during the reign of Henry III, a law was passed that stated that you know, substantial freeholders could keep the dogs for the protection of their houses. So, you know, they've been associated with country houses for years and years and years. And actually at Chatsworth House, ⁓ the last mastiff there is remembered by his surviving collar, which was made in ⁓ 1832. ⁓ But know, big dogs like those ⁓ really struggled throughout the war period. ⁓ You know, they're big dogs, they really do eat as much as a horse. after the Second World War, I think there are about eight left in the country. So they have kind of disappeared ⁓ from country estates. ⁓ And then of course, you've got the entire spectrum of... gumbags, know, spaniels, setters, your favourite ⁓ retrievers, which are very much part of ⁓ estate management here. ⁓ But, you know, historically, these dogs, they fulfilled a number of roles, but I think these days, they're mostly pets. I mean, you only have to look at our late queen Elizabeth and ⁓ you know, she was always surrounded by corgis. Princess Diana actually called them a moving carpet of corgis because she was always had them at her ankles. And our current queen consort loves Jack Russell's. In fact, two of her Jack Russell's appeared on our frontispiece page in her pearls a couple of years ago, which was quite funny. Jonathan Thomas (16:30) I love that. For those who aren't familiar, at the beginning of country life, there's always a frontispiece picture of a beautiful young aristocratic woman who is up and coming in high society. And it's considered a mark of your up and comings if you're featured in the frontispiece. So to feature the dogs is hilarious and awesome. So, yeah. Agnes Stamp (16:52) That's right. Really, it's hilarious. Jonathan Thomas (17:00) You mentioned in the introduction that this isn't an encyclopedia of all the breeds. So what was your selection criteria for which dogs to include? Agnes Stamp (17:05) Mm. Um, so the breeds I chose, um, really were entirely based on those that have been relevant to country life. Um, and, uh, in the past, um, I only included, uh, breeds that, you know, we featured in the magazine and, know, are therefore very, you know, already popular with our readership or, you know, the editor at the time has felt they would appeal to our readership. Jonathan Thomas (17:37) And so how did you approach combining both these well-known breeds like Labradors and Corgis and with rare more obscure ones? Agnes Stamp (17:47) So country life has always been a great champion of vulnerable native breeds and what I mean by that is the Royal Kennel Club publishes a list each year of the breeds that they deem you know at risk and that means that those breeds have fewer than 300 registrations. And Country Life has always reported on what breeds are on that list. ⁓ So, you know, I didn't really struggle when it came to researching, say, otter hounds or coeliums, because the editorial was there. ⁓ It became a little, ⁓ a little trickier around images, because some of these breeds are so rare, you know, we haven't, you know, photographed them recently, say, but that is where the Royal Kennel Club and also there's a wonderful picture library here called the Mary Evans Picture Library. They were really helpful and I was able to access their image libraries as well. And then I suppose at the other end of the scale that you've got dogs like Labradors and we have many, many, many. pictures of Labradors in the... Yeah. And, you know, I had absolutely no problem ⁓ finding photographs of Labradors. But actually, as a friend of mine says, he says, Labradors are a bit like vintage MG cars, if you know what one of those is. ⁓ Jonathan Thomas (19:11) Yeah, they're on the cover as well. That's everyone's favorite dog, right? Yeah. Agnes Stamp (19:35) They're a little bit boring but very popular for a reason. Exactly, exactly. Jonathan Thomas (19:41) Very easy to photograph, right? So I'm dying to know, is the Country Life archive a place, like a dusty old room, or is it a database and a computer? Agnes Stamp (19:54) So once upon a time, ⁓ we had all the volumes with us in the office. ⁓ And it was a treasure trove, know, just, you know, place that you could sit and go through old volumes. These are all now specially housed ⁓ in a warehouse elsewhere because the archive has been digitized. So ⁓ you can access it online, saying that there's a bit of a delay with how far it's gone. you know, there's, you know, there's, I think there's about 20 years, you still need to do, you know, manually, if, if, if you like. But yeah, all the old stuff is now digitized, which is great. Jonathan Thomas (20:43) Yeah, that makes it really easy to just search. I can imagine ⁓ getting into the modern technology using an AI GPT to analyze country life. like, give me all the dogs that look like this. Give me all those homes that do this. Give me eccentric aristocratic stories. So speaking of stories. Agnes Stamp (20:45) Mm. Yeah. it. ⁓ I guess I'm Yeah. Jonathan Thomas (21:10) What were some of the most surprising or delightful facts that you uncovered while you were researching the special dogs? Agnes Stamp (21:10) Mm. Oh, gosh, I mean, there were so many. I, ooh, well, everybody knows that Lord Byron had his beloved Newfoundland, Bowson, you know, and when Bowson died from rabies, he was absolutely devastated. But a little known fact is that he also kept two bulldogs during his time at Cambridge University. And they were called Savage and Smut, which I think are really funny names. ⁓ And then I also really enjoyed discovering that Josephine ⁓ Bonaparte had a beloved companion, ⁓ a pug called Fortune. And on his wedding night when Napoleon went back to the covers to hop into bed with Josephine, fortune popped out and savaged Napoleon. I think if you've ever met a pug, you know, they really are kind of these bombastic little creatures, know, sort of stocky and compact. And I like to kind of imagine that Napoleon probably thought he met his match that evening. Jonathan Thomas (22:30) Yeah, definitely. Any other interesting anecdotes like that? Because that's so fascinating. That's hard to put you on the spot. ⁓ Agnes Stamp (22:38) you've put me on the spot. You've put me on the spot. ⁓ you might have to let me have a think and you might have to edit that in. Jonathan Thomas (22:47) Alright, alright. Well, ⁓ did you have an opportunity to visit any of these estates or kennels that are mentioned in the book? Any particularly memorable visits? Agnes Stamp (22:57) So, ⁓ I mean, over the course of my career, I, you know, I have ⁓ visited some of these estates and obviously they're all absolutely beautiful. ⁓ But the greatest pleasure I gleaned during this book process ⁓ was visiting the Royal Kennel Clubs Library, ⁓ which is in ⁓ Mayfair, close to Green Park in London. And as I'm sure you're Jonathan Thomas (23:17) okay. Agnes Stamp (23:25) listeners know Green Park is the most beautiful park. It's one of the Royal Parks. It's gorgeous. But yeah, the Royal Kennel Clubs Library really is the most incredible space. It houses, ⁓ you know, every possible book you can imagine on dogs. And they also have an amazing art gallery space. And you know, the entire building is filled with the most incredible dog paintings and illustrations and You know, it's just, it's a dog lover's heaven in there. Jonathan Thomas (23:56) Fascinating. I'd love to see it one day. I would be remiss for not asking, do you have any interesting anecdotes about King Charles Cavalier Spaniels? Agnes Stamp (24:05) Well, I do actually have ⁓ an anecdote about ⁓ King Charles Spaniels in that, of course, we know that King Charles II was a huge fan of the breed. ⁓ And apparently he took them everywhere. He took them to his privy council meetings and spent an awful lot of time with them when he probably should be thinking about more serious things. And there's a wonderful quote from Samuel Pepys in 60 to 66 which says, all I observed was the silliness of the king playing with his dogs all the while and not minding the business. Jonathan Thomas (24:46) Well, as an owner of two Cavalier Spaniels, I can tell you that I can understand why he wasn't getting anything done. Agnes Stamp (24:49) . Yeah, they're very distracting. Jonathan Thomas (24:55) they are. Stop licking your foot. Come on. Stop. You know you're not supposed to do that. Come on. Were there any breeds or historical figures you wanted to include but you had to leave out? Agnes Stamp (25:09) Um, oh, I mean, so this book, I mean, it, it romps through 70 breeds. And I really, I know I was very happy with the breeds we included. I mean, it certainly was a marathon getting through them all. I mean, some breeds, as I say, we've covered more than others. And I would say, Jonathan Thomas (25:10) Come on, Cooper. Agnes Stamp (25:35) Perhaps the hardest one to research was probably the Manchester Terrier. They almost look like mini, mini Dobermans, if that makes any sense at all. But, you know, I got there in the end. Agatha Christie was a fan, ⁓ and so was Eliza Sohn, who the wife of the architect, John Sohn, she kept a Manchester Terrier called Fanny as a lap dog. So, yeah, got there in the end. Jonathan Thomas (26:06) Well, ⁓ I want to mention that in our pre-chat that you mentioned that you wrote this book in six months in addition to your day job. So I applaud the amount of work you had to put in to meet the deadline. Agnes Stamp (26:19) Thank you. Jonathan Thomas (26:22) So can you share the story of a particular dog in the book that truly captivated you, either for their personality or their legacy or their connection to a famous figure? Agnes Stamp (26:32) Do you know, if you have a look at the Mastiff chapter, there is a photograph of ⁓ Rory Stewart. I know he's very popular in the States as well. And he's ⁓ photographed with his foreign Mastiff Morag, which is a solid Scottish name. ⁓ what listeners may not know is that he wrote a very poetic account of his walk across Afghanistan in 2002 and ⁓ within the book he describes ⁓ a relationship that he forms with a retired fighting master ⁓ who he names Babur and ⁓ at the end of the book he's all set to bring Babur home to Scotland and to live out the rest of his days in comfort and think Rory grows ahead to make arrangements and ⁓ And then he gets a telephone call from his friend who was looking after him in Pakistan and Babur had died. And when I read this chapter, I was inconsolable because I've, ⁓ you know, I fully empathised with the grief of losing a dog or ⁓ any pet really. so yeah, that was, ⁓ I was really moved by that little nugget. Jonathan Thomas (27:39) ⁓ Not for you. Yeah, it's never it's that's the problem with dogs is they don't they don't live long enough. You know, they really do. I lost I had a dog a couple of years ago. He was just a mutt that we adopted from from the shelter. And I named him Winston after Winston Churchill. And but he he only lived to be six because he got he got doggy cancer. It's like you have no like you're like, wait, I was supposed to have Agnes Stamp (28:00) No, exactly. ⁓ I know. Jonathan Thomas (28:25) I was supposed to have 10 or 15 years with you. Six years was not enough. But as my wife would say, he was the world's worst dog. you know, it's the worst dogs who are the best dogs. ⁓ So the story of Queen Victoria's dogs and her diaries listing hundreds of them is fascinating. Do you think any monarch has loved dogs more? And I believe those were cavaliers. Agnes Stamp (28:36) Exactly. Exactly. Mm. Yeah, well, mean, as we know, ⁓ cavaliers were very popular with one of our ⁓ kings historically. But I think that ⁓ Queen Elizabeth II probably comes a close second. She absolutely adored her dogs, her corgis. And she actually had a doggy as well, which is a Dachshund crossed with a corgi. And she also loved her horse. ⁓ Jonathan Thomas (29:16) long enough right? Agnes Stamp (29:20) And she also loved her horses as well. And actually, I watched a very amusing Instagram video of the late queen ⁓ watching old family videos with the then Prince of Wales. And when one of the young princes appears on screen, she says, you know, could be William could be George. And then as soon as a corgi appears, she says instantly that Susan. ⁓ Jonathan Thomas (29:46) No. Agnes Stamp (29:46) who was the corgi given to her on her 18th birthday so it's very funny to watch you think yeah yeah dogs dogs first exactly Jonathan Thomas (29:54) dog being more memorable than the child. Well I'm sure we could all recognize our dogs before. ⁓ The the Basset Hound and the Dachshund both have strong aristocratic associations. ⁓ Do you think these, I hate to use the word, grotesque looking dogs are embraced so widely by the upper classes? Why do you think that is? Agnes Stamp (30:09) Mmm. Well, I think beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I agree. I mean, I don't think any dog could be described as grotesque. ⁓ But I suppose some people, some breeds are an acquired taste. ⁓ And Dachshunds, know Prince Albert was keen on those. They are a German breed. ⁓ Jonathan Thomas (30:25) Yeah. Agnes Stamp (30:48) And actually, Dachshunds ⁓ had a bit of a, you know, rough deal in this country historically. ⁓ And German shepherds to some extent too. They were persecuted for being German, which I actually found that fact. Yeah, and I found that fact quite shocking when I found out because, you know, this is a nation of animal lovers. So, yeah, but you can read all about that in the Jonathan Thomas (31:05) Careful. Yeah. Agnes Stamp (31:18) in the sausage dog chapter. Jonathan Thomas (31:20) Well, and as we talk about the broader legacy of Britain's attitudes towards dogs, when do you think the shift from working dogs to companion dogs happened and what that tells about British society? How has that changed over time, least in the 20th century? Agnes Stamp (31:38) Sure. Well, mean, dogs, the change in use is really a reflection of progress. ⁓ For example, the turnspit dogs, which were used to turn meat in the kitchen on a wheel, ⁓ they went because more convenient methods of cooking were developed. And similarly, we don't... use carriages as we once did as the main means of transport. ⁓ know, a carriage dog would be a Dalmatian. you know, a dog is, you know, now it's just a pet. ⁓ And then, you know, the city, our cities are cleaner on the whole. ⁓ So we aren't, say, employing terriers to manage pests in quite the same way. we're sort of, you know, over time, we've kind of taken away the dog's jobs. we either want to keep the breeds around because we like them and people enjoy keeping them as pets or showing them, but we're not kind of working them in the same way. ⁓ You know, there are some breeds that are completely extinct now, not really because they lost their job, but I'm just as an example, you know, the English white terrier, which was a forerunner to a bull terrier and of the water, there's a Tweed water spaniel, which was a forerunner to golden retrievers. You know, they've gone due to interbreeding and the development of more desirable breeds. But I suppose, you know, time, have changed, but we do still rely on some working dogs. know, sheep dogs are still used and I think, you know, that's an example that colleagues I think they truly are happiest working because their brains are wired that way. ⁓ Also, know, police dogs, medical detection dogs, which I find absolutely fascinating. And there are even you know, dogs that can snip out sniff out Japanese knotweed, which is a plant that can, you know, really wreck buildings. ⁓ So yeah, I mean, We've loved dogs for a long time and they've served us well, but now I think most people keep them as pets and historically lap dogs were known as comforters ⁓ for both emotional comfort and also they warmed beds and things. ⁓ And today I think probably all dogs are comforters in a way for us. Jonathan Thomas (34:27) Definitely. And that's interesting. You talked about us taking away their jobs. And that's interesting because we may have taken away their jobs, but that generations of breeding and instinct hasn't gone away. I mean, even our cavaliers, if there is a mouse loose in my house, they know about it and they try to, they don't know what to do with it, but they know that they need to be looking for it. it's quite, you know, it's, yeah. Agnes Stamp (34:39) Exact clue. Yeah. Exactly, know, there's generations of breeding that has gone in to these breeds and they have an instinct that you can't ever remove, I suppose. Jonathan Thomas (35:09) Yeah. Since you mentioned native breeds that are either extinct or vulnerable, what do you think, you know, Britain can do to kind of preserve this, this canine heritage? Is it, is it a matter of ⁓ breeding stock or is it getting people to want weird looking, almost extinct dogs? Agnes Stamp (35:14) Mm. So, I mean, I am a big advocate of opening your home up to a rescue. And there are brilliant shelters here in the UK, like the Battersea and the Dogs Trust who do an amazing job of rehoming. And I know that you guys have some amazing shelters as well. But I think actually, you know, I think people just need to do their research. Jonathan Thomas (35:48) Yes. Agnes Stamp (35:54) about breeds when it comes to choosing a dog because ⁓ it's really easy to just opt for a familiar breed but actually you might discover that one of the vulnerable native breeds would really suit your lifestyle and your family. ⁓ I'm not saying that you're going to find vulnerable native breeds necessarily in shelters but I'm just saying you should keep your mind open and it's probably a know it's about ⁓ education and research. Jonathan Thomas (36:26) always good advice. we say here, we're also big advocates of rescuing the dog. We've rescued several dogs. It's also a place where we're a specific breed from a breeder. But if you do that, your research and make sure that the dogs are registered and they're not ⁓ battery farm puppies because that just leads to problems later. ⁓ I know when we got our cavaliers, they Agnes Stamp (36:34) Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Jonathan Thomas (36:54) It was a long process to find the right breeder, the right breeding stock, and we've had them now for five or six years and haven't had any issues with them other than their poor behavior. Agnes Stamp (37:04) Except... That's wonderful! And you actually adore their poor behaviour, so... Jonathan Thomas (37:09) Well, I don't they are I Did get it into the weeds they are practically impossible the house train and that is very frustrating But you just have to work around it So obviously this is a big coffee table book, so photography is a big part of this book. So what role do you think photography has played in shaping public perception and written about dogs and country life? Agnes Stamp (37:26) Mmm. So, I mean, the Victorian era was, you know, to live through it must have been such an exciting time. You know, so we've got dog breeds, you know, this is the point that sort of being standardized, you know, the Kennel Club forms and, you know, 24 years later, country life arrives. So, and you've also, you know, got photography really taking off. ⁓ And it was around this time that suddenly it becomes really fashionable to have your pet photographed. ⁓ You know, as an owner, you might be in shot, you might not, but it's a very fashionable thing to do. ⁓ And so all of these things aligning means that ⁓ suddenly images of dogs are appearing in magazines. And I think, you know, that's that's, it has kind of twofold benefit, which is it's promoting ⁓ breeds that were kind of previously unseen, say by the general public. But also it's, it's opening up a new ⁓ facet of understanding. ⁓ You know, I mean, you can read a description of a dog, however good it might be. But if you've never seen that dog, then you don't, you don't really know what it looks like. ⁓ So I think Jonathan Thomas (38:42) I said. Agnes Stamp (39:04) know, photography, dog photography and magazines ⁓ really helped that. And there was a leading dog photographer at the time, ⁓ chap called Thomas Fall. ⁓ And he actually photographed ⁓ the Princess of Wales and her Bozoi, which is a Russian breed, ⁓ for the magazine's first issue, which was January the 8th, 1897. ⁓ and he went on to photograph ⁓ the dogs at Sandringham and you know Country Life published his work a lot ⁓ so and there are a lot of his photographs in the book. Jonathan Thomas (39:46) Like I said, there are a lot of beautiful photographs in this book. So what a joy it must have been to just browse the archive for hours and hours looking at pretty dogs. Not a bad gig, right? Agnes Stamp (39:51) you I was. Yeah, it was great. Jonathan Thomas (40:00) So what do you hope readers take away from this book, particularly those who might not be dog people? Agnes Stamp (40:06) ⁓ Well, if you're not a dog person, you should be, ⁓ but no, ⁓ no judgment. I'd say I hope it offers a snapshot of the breeds that are dear to country life and why. And I really hope that ⁓ readers of the book will enjoy. Jonathan Thomas (40:10) Don't touch that! Agnes Stamp (40:30) some of the anecdotes in there because some really are very funny. I've just remembered another one of my favorites actually, which is the tale of Laszlo, the Dan-Diedenmont Terrier, which is another vulnerable native. And this particular Terrier terrorized Boris Johnson when he was editing The Spectator. Jonathan Thomas (40:53) Well, good. Agnes Stamp (40:56) ⁓ So yeah, that was a very funny story that's in there. Jonathan Thomas (41:02) I love ⁓ it. Dogs know, right? Dogs know how to, don't know people better than they leave you sometimes. Not that I'm getting political in any way. Agnes Stamp (41:06) Exactly. This is just about dogs. ⁓ Jonathan Thomas (41:15) just about dogs and how they how they think of people. So finally and I know we kind of already covered this but if you could bring home just one breed featured in the book which one would it be? Agnes Stamp (41:28) well, ⁓ I, as you've probably realized, I really love big dogs, but, ⁓ unless you have a palatial setup, it doesn't, it doesn't really work. but yeah, I'm very keen on, on bull terriers, which are a favorite of our Princess Royal and, ⁓ I rather like the miniature version, ⁓ which are also on our vulnerable native breeds list. So I think I'd... I think I'd like one of those. ⁓ And actually there is a wonderful dog photographer called Alice Van Kempen who really captures the personality of the bull terrier. And I recently wrote about her and a feature about artist dogs which was published in the magazine a couple of months ago. ⁓ Yeah, so, and actually I also have it on good authority that they make excellent pets. Country Life noted in the late 70s that the bull terrier is a splendid example of a purpose-built breed, yet visually and temperamentally a good companion. So, perfect for me. Jonathan Thomas (42:32) Well, if you could, if you did have a palatial spread and could get a big dog, which big dog would you want? Agnes Stamp (42:39) I would probably like a couple of masters. Actually a friend of mine has a Great Dane and he really is magnificent. He's also in the book actually. He opens the Great Dane chapter. He's very handsome. Jonathan Thomas (42:43) Yes. I love it. Is it a dog? Is it a horse? Does it matter? Yeah. I love it. So what a delightful and enlightening conversation this was. Thank you so much for joining us on the Anglotopia podcast, Agnes. We will link to the country life's book of dogs where you can purchase a copy in the show notes. It's a truly must have for any British dog owner or even an Anglophile who's into dogs. So we are giving away a copy. Agnes Stamp (42:59) Yeah, or is it a small pony? Who knows? Absolute pleasure. Jonathan Thomas (43:25) If you because we were given to by the publisher, so there will be a link in the show notes where you can enter to win this Enter away. It's a beautiful book. You're gonna want this if you enjoyed this episode Please subscribe rate or leave a comment. It really helps others discover the podcast and if you love what we do at Anglotopia Please consider joining the Friends of Anglotopia Club where you'll get early access to new episodes and connect with fellow Anglophiles in our private online community So join us Next time, we continue our journey through the people, places and stories that make British culture so endlessly captivating. Thank you so much for Agnes for being on the Angotopia Podcast. Agnes Stamp (44:03) Thank you for having me.