Jonathan Thomas (00:12) Welcome to the Anglotopia podcast where we explore British history, travel and culture. I'm your host, Jonathan Thomas. And today I'm thrilled to be joined by writer Tony Hargis, author of the classic book on British culture Rules, Britannia, and also a former contributor to Anglotopia. Tony is a Brit who spent half of her life in the UK and then half the other half in the US. And then a few years ago, she returned to Britain. Leading to her writing about her observations on how Britain had changed for the three decades she was gone and we'll link to the show notes to her archive of columns there. Toni took a break from writing for Anglotopia but I'm excited to announce that she is returning to write a monthly column for Anglotopia that is going to be all about life in Britain as it is today. So, welcome to the podcast, Toni. Toni (Summers) Hargis (00:56) So happy to be back. Jonathan Thomas (00:58) Yes, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. We're so excited. So first, we won't bury the lede We'll talk about the new column first. So ⁓ what name did you decide to go with? And can you give Anglotopia listeners an idea of what they can expect in the coming months? Toni (Summers) Hargis (01:13) Yeah, so I did play around with a few pond words and things like that, but then came up with Brit Buzz And I think we both agree that's quite a good catchy name. ⁓ And I also, what I want to do with it is talk about some current things as well as, you know, differences between the US and the UK and what's changed. You know, if there's anything current, if there's any crazy story, you know, one of these eccentric Jonathan Thomas (01:22) Yeah. Toni (Summers) Hargis (01:40) British stories that's going on over here, then I'd like to write about that for the listeners. So yeah, Brit Buzz, I think it's a good one. Jonathan Thomas (01:47) Yeah, and I know that there's, I've seen a lot of articles recently that there's elements of American culture that have sort of are being adopted in Britain and vice versa. So it'd be interesting to see your observations as as someone who lived in America for so long, you know, what those differences are. Toni (Summers) Hargis (02:03) Yeah, yeah, definitely. they, I was just sort of reading up and, you know, reading about what I used to say. But interestingly, you know, the, journalist and broadcaster Alastair Cook, in 1935, he made an observation that every English person now has, it uses about 30 or 40 Americanisms a day. And I'm, goodness knows what it's up to now. But so he was saying that back in 1935. Jonathan Thomas (02:29) You Well good, so ⁓ we will link in the show notes. We're gonna time the release of this episode to her first column, so no pressure there, Tony. And then, ⁓ well, let's talk about Britain right now. Let's talk about the weather. You're having a heat wave. Toni (Summers) Hargis (02:41) Hahaha. Yeah, we are. Yeah, it is a heatwave. We had the hottest first ⁓ of May on record. And I happen to live in the hottest place in the country at the moment. Today, we're at 28 Celsius. So that's high 80s, at least, and we have no air conditioning. ⁓ And the country is just not equipped for this kind of weather, but it's getting more and more common. So Jonathan Thomas (03:14) And it's the humidity, right? That's what gets you. Toni (Summers) Hargis (03:16) It's not too bad today, but it's just, know, and people, unlike in the rest of Europe, in Spain and Italy, we don't know that you're supposed to close the drapes and all that sort of thing. So, you know, on the news, it's telling you how to try and keep your house cool. Because Brits just open all the doors and windows and actually you're letting the hot air in. So we've got a big learning curve. Jonathan Thomas (03:44) Well, it's unusual for to be this warm and sunny this early in the season. Toni (Summers) Hargis (03:50) This early, I mean, the summers are definitely getting hotter. But you know, when you think it's the beginning of May, it's like, my God, we didn't even have April showers. I think we had the driest March on record, we didn't really have a lot of rain in, in April. So everybody's gardens are dying and ⁓ I'm going into London on the tube tomorrow. So that should be really pleasant. ⁓ Jonathan Thomas (04:08) It's gonna be a sunny and hot bank holiday weekend, right? So you're gonna get even hotter. Take lots of water with you then. Toni (Summers) Hargis (04:18) Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what they do. I don't know whether you've you remember, but one thing I did notice on the tubes and on the trains, some of the announcements are buy some water before you get on this train. Jonathan Thomas (04:36) Well, I something interesting about the tube is that I read is that ⁓ London's clay actually stores the heat So that that's why the two actually gets so much hotter than the rest of London is it stores the heat So now that it's hotter earlier, it's gonna store that heat for longer. So have fun The worst one, yeah ⁓ Toni (Summers) Hargis (04:48) Yeah, yeah. ⁓ God. It'll be lovely. And I've got to go on the Northern line, which is one of the oldest. it's not gonna, and it's too far to walk. I usually just get off, I get my train into Waterloo station. And then usually I just walk across the bridge and then walk to where, but this is a bit too far. So tube it is. Jonathan Thomas (05:12) Well, take lots of water. So, ⁓ well, let's, let's talk about your book. Now your book is, sadly your book is out of print, but it is available in ebook. ⁓ and so it's, I consider this one of the classic, books on British culture. One of the ones I read as a young Anglophile back before we started Anglotopia. And so it's, ⁓ it's a great primer on British culture. And so you're. Toni (Summers) Hargis (05:13) Yeah. Hmm. wow, that's kind. Jonathan Thomas (05:40) It came out in 2006 and it's easy to find secondhand. I'm happy to report you could easily find it and it's available on ebook. ⁓ But when you look back on the book and the content in it, how is it holding up to British culture now? Toni (Summers) Hargis (05:54) It's not too bad because a lot of the beginnings of each chapter, because I do chapters, it's almost like a what to expect. So I do schools and houses. And so a lot of the generalizations still apply. But then, you know, if you think about it, there was very little internet stuff then. the technology has moved considerably. And I just picked a page and I had written about call waiting. Do you remember? when we used to be on the phone and you'd get call waiting and you had to say to your friend, right, I've got another call coming in and Brits didn't do that. They used to think that was really rude. So that was one of my comments. That doesn't really even exist anymore, does it? So in terms of holding up, it's more because of the developments rather than things are necessarily incorrect. They just weren't, they didn't exist. Some of the things, ⁓ Jonathan Thomas (06:21) Yeah. No. Toni (Summers) Hargis (06:47) that in 2006, they just weren't issues. So but it is interesting and things like, you know, I write about that there was a north there's a north south divide the same as there is in this state's except the north is the poor relative here. And that's probably it's definitely the same if not more, more of an issue, because of finances and people think that the UK is very London centric. Jonathan Thomas (06:51) it Toni (Summers) Hargis (07:13) So those sort of things were interesting to sort of to go back and look at. And then there's customer service, which I, you know, I've written a whole ⁓ chapter about customer service. And I said, you know, Americans are always disappointed with the customer service here and it's still not great. ⁓ Jonathan Thomas (07:18) Yeah, that's. Yeah, I would confirm that, but I would never criticize. ⁓ Toni (Summers) Hargis (07:32) No, I mean, you know, when I go to restaurants in London, ⁓ and you can sit for ages before someone comes up and I keep saying to my friends, they should offer us a drink, they're losing money, they should give us a drink, and then give us, you know, five, 10 minutes to look at the menu, but they don't, they just sit you down and then 20 minutes later, they come back. that's... Jonathan Thomas (07:52) ⁓ by the way, you want some food and drink? Toni (Summers) Hargis (07:54) Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that kind of thing. I mean, it's, it's, it Jonathan Thomas (07:57) Even in really nice restaurants too, where you would expect a higher level of service, it's just like you're being ignored. Toni (Summers) Hargis (08:02) Yeah, yeah. And I get that they want, they don't want to rush you because you the opposite happens in the US where you know they're trying to turn the table. But yeah, you could just die at your table and no one would realize. Jonathan Thomas (08:17) Yeah, I've had many meals in Britain where ⁓ you've eaten, the service is okay, but then like you're done and you're like, okay, well, I'm ready to move on and leave for the evening. like getting that final bill at the end, like a becomes a quest to get the attention of the waitstaff to get paid to leave. Toni (Summers) Hargis (08:30) Yeah. Yes, yes, it really is. And I have been known to just get up and go find somebody. And, you know, that's when my mother or my family members will say, God, she's being an American. Jonathan Thomas (08:45) Yeah, I've got a good friend who we go to dinner with quite often when we visit and he doesn't take, he has no patience for bad service. So he's very American about it almost, or he's always getting the attention of the waitstaff and making sure that everybody's happy. it's like, it's beautiful to see in action because you're like, I wish I had the confidence. So you mentioned technology and you mentioned call waiting. Toni (Summers) Hargis (08:59) Mm-hmm. Jonathan Thomas (09:13) That brings up a topic I think is actually really interesting that's different. And that's WhatsApp. How the British have adopted WhatsApp. Like it's like, it's like everybody uses WhatsApp in the UK. Barely anybody uses WhatsApp in the US. Yeah. Toni (Summers) Hargis (09:22) Yeah, god, It's so funny, isn't it? I mean, I must have been added to about 15 groups. Every time you make an arrangement to do anything, someone forms a WhatsApp group. And I went through my WhatsApps the other day. There were 27 groups. Some of them were just completely, they just extinct. know, the people that I was in the groups with have left the country and all that sort of thing. And you're like, I don't need to be in another group, but it is easy. It makes it so much easier. Jonathan Thomas (09:54) Yeah, yeah. Toni (Summers) Hargis (09:54) And yes, you could do it via email, it's easy and the phone calls are cheap. I mean, free. And that's why a lot of people use WhatsApp as well, because it's free. Jonathan Thomas (10:01) Yeah. Well, that's what's funny is that created a whole, a whole culture of etiquette around WhatsApp because like, like you said, you've been added to all these groups, but the last thing you want to do is leave a group because everybody knows about it. Toni (Summers) Hargis (10:14) yeah. Yeah, or you have to explain why. Yeah, that's a new one. Jonathan Thomas (10:23) Yeah So yeah, you know what, you know what, be the embarrassed person who left the WhatsApp group and a half. ⁓ Toni (Summers) Hargis (10:33) ⁓ I think, can you leave without alerting people? think there's some, they've developed it a bit. I think you can leave without too much of a fuss these days. I think you can just slink off and it doesn't announce that Jonathan's left the group. Jonathan Thomas (10:42) I hope so because there's Yeah, because I like, ⁓ I for the last six years until this past February, I worked for an Irish company and they're very similar. They use WhatsApp for everything. And I was added to a few WhatsApp groups and I'm like, how do I leave these groups now without looking like a jerk? You know, it's like, So ⁓ now to give people ⁓ sort of ⁓ a lay of the land here. So you. Toni (Summers) Hargis (10:56) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ha ha ha. Jonathan Thomas (11:16) You lived in the US from, from what, early 2000s or the 90s? Toni (Summers) Hargis (11:20) 1990 to 2017. Jonathan Thomas (11:24) Yeah, and then that's when you moved back to Britain. And then that's when you wrote for us the repat column and then it changed it to a different column. And then, so you're, you've been there now for what? Six or seven years. Yeah. So now are you, are you staying? Are you firmly staying despite you don't know? Toni (Summers) Hargis (11:29) Yeah. Don't know. No idea. I've got two kids, adult kids still in the States and one is here. So I'll probably end up back in the States to be honest, cause I don't know where the son here is going to end up. Cause he's talking about Berlin and this, that and the other. And so I think longer term, I will end up back in the States. And I, you know, I travel, still travel. had a house in the States up until last year. ⁓ And I'm still, I was there four times last year, ⁓ you know, so I'm still very immersed in American life. Yeah, yeah. Jonathan Thomas (12:17) That's good. You get to kind of dip your toe on both sides of the pond. So ⁓ when you moved back to the UK, you wrote about having to think about of it as more as a move to a foreign country. And you wrote about a lot of those changes in your column. So do you think you fully acclimatized now? Or is there still things that trip you up as as a very American where you're like, ⁓ Toni (Summers) Hargis (12:29) Yeah. Um, well, my reaction to bad customer service is definitely, um, you know, a hangover from a good one from the U S I think, but I think I'm 90, 90%. Um, acclimatized, um, you know, I'm feel very comfortable here, but there's this huge gap in cultural knowledge because, you know, so I, I, you don't want me on your pub quiz team, you know, or that sort of thing, because Jonathan Thomas (12:44) Ha ha ha. You Toni (Summers) Hargis (13:08) I, you know, bands like Oasis and Blur weren't as big in the US as they were. They were huge here. And people like, what, sorry? Yeah, yeah, exactly. and, you know, Robbie Williams is huge. And I think he was in a boy band. I think it was Take That. All of that happened while I was away. And then there are people who come on the television to, you know, they're on panel. Jonathan Thomas (13:16) Yeah, you missed Cool Britannia. You missed Cool Britannia while you were gone. Toni (Summers) Hargis (13:37) this, that the other. I have no idea why they're famous. I know who they are now, but I don't know where they started and why they're famous. So yeah, I mean that sort of thing. And people look at me as if, how can you not know her or whatever? And it's like, because I wasn't here. And also there wasn't as many streaming services. think, you know, and I can remember when BBC America started, you know, so in the US we did not have access to a lot of British culture the way you can now. ⁓ So yeah, that's the biggest, you know, that's the biggest telltale sign that I wasn't here all the time. Jonathan Thomas (14:18) Yeah, I've noticed ⁓ I'm in the Chicago British Expat group just because I like British people, not because I'm an expat, obviously. it's interesting to see their observations and the things they miss most about Britain. Toni (Summers) Hargis (14:25) ⁓ huh. Yeah. Jonathan Thomas (14:32) And it's fun to see how perplexed they get sometimes over the way we do things. And that cultural exchange, yeah, I could see if you were gone in the 90s, you were gone in early 2000s, that's when I came up in Britishness stuff with British TV and Doctor Who and Downton Abbey and stuff. then to return to Britain and you're like, who are all these people? What? Toni (Summers) Hargis (14:37) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. huh. Yeah, no, seriously. mean, and also catchphrases that come from TV. And I can't give you an example because I don't know them. you know, there are certain catchphrases and they'll call people, you're right, Victor Meldrew. And I didn't watch the shows that they refer to. So that goes straight over my head. One of these days I'll Google them all. But that sort of thing goes straight over my head as well. Jonathan Thomas (15:23) Yeah, I feel like as an Anglophile, I've spent the last 25 years playing catch-up for all those things I don't know about Britain. So it's like I try to watch every British TV show I can just so I can get the references. And I'm still probably haven't scratched the surface. ⁓ Toni (Summers) Hargis (15:29) Mm-hmm. Yeah, no it's- No, no. And things like, the other thing is, this came up the other day, my kids like the band Blink 182. And I said, Blink 182, and all my friends looked at me and went, what? And I said, ⁓ have you not heard of them? And they said, yes, but it's Blink 182. And so Americans say 182 because the band says that's how they say their name, by the way, because I did Google that one. But yeah, and the other one is the car. Jonathan Thomas (15:58) You Toni (Summers) Hargis (16:07) remember, how do Americans say Hyundai? It's actually supposed to be like a Hyundai. But the first time I said that in the UK, they everybody just thought that was hilarious, because they say Hyundai. And interestingly, the new adverts, the they're correcting the Brits because it is Hyundai. It's more like that. It's more like the Americans were saying it some smug about that one. Jonathan Thomas (16:36) coming around to what you think it should be. That's funny. Toni (Summers) Hargis (16:38) Yeah, but the interesting thing is when I was in the US, I could say basil. I could say oregano. That didn't bother me. I could never ever do the double like tomato. So you change the A and the T. I could never ever bring myself to do that. And the word here, because it's a tech word, and I learned it in the States, is router, because Brits say router. And I'm like, I can't say that, you know. Jonathan Thomas (17:04) Yeah. Toni (Summers) Hargis (17:07) So if you're phoning up your broadband company and they talk about the router, and if I say router, they don't know what I mean. So I have to say router. Jonathan Thomas (17:17) Separated by a common language, right? The same words sometimes ⁓ So ⁓ Let's talk about language ⁓ you know we There was a recent study that came out that said that British isms have infected American English especially amongst children because of like Peppa Pig and all that ⁓ Has there been a concurrent ⁓ thing in Britain where they've adopted American isms and Toni (Summers) Hargis (17:18) Yeah, definitely. ⁓ Yeah. Jonathan Thomas (17:46) What are some American words that are infecting Britain right now that you're like, what? Toni (Summers) Hargis (17:49) Yeah, and I noticed that a lot when I moved back. They're just everywhere. mean, even just in the last few days, that I've been aware of, I'm going to have this conversation with you, listening to the radio, on radio too, they were talking about buying a pair of new sneakers. It's like what happened to trainers? So that word is almost ubiquitous now, people just say, and cookie. They are probably the two words that people just say now. Jonathan Thomas (18:09) Yeah. Toni (Summers) Hargis (18:19) I can't remember the last time I heard biscuit. It's just cookie. And that's definitely changed over the decades. But another one I heard this morning was a rock and a hard place. And that never used to be a phrase. I think the classic version is Scylla and Charybdis. But Brits never used to say rock and a hard place. And they say that, they say bangs for your fringe. That's quite a common one. then, you know, a couple of weeks ago when Heathrow Airport went down for 24 hours, everyone was calling it an outage. And it used to be called a power cut. And everybody on the news, it was all referred to as an outage, which I thought was really interesting, you know. But. Jonathan Thomas (18:58) Yeah. bizarre thing about that as they still don't know why that happened. Toni (Summers) Hargis (19:08) Yeah, no, they don't, they? ⁓ But culturally, prom is huge. mean, you know, all the kids do prom with the limos and the dresses. They don't do all the little details. And I don't know whether they have prom king and queen. And they don't do as many of the details that Americans do, like the corsage and all that sort of thing. But prom is huge, as is coffee, as you've probably found out here. Jonathan Thomas (19:33) That's. Yeah. Toni (Summers) Hargis (19:37) you know, everybody's drinking great big, you know, venties or whatever. mean, coffee places are everywhere and not just the American brands, there's a lot of coffee brands chains as well. So that, you know, there's probably, I don't know what the statistics are, but I wouldn't be surprised if as many Brits drink coffee as do as they do tea. You know, I know, but they a lot, a lot of people that I know have the smaller espresso machines. Jonathan Thomas (19:55) Hmm. How un- un-British coffee. Toni (Summers) Hargis (20:05) So they're making like more continental coffees. Fancy coffees, yeah. Jonathan Thomas (20:09) fancy coffees. So, well speaking of tea and coffee, what's your tea of choice? Toni (Summers) Hargis (20:16) ⁓ well, I live near a Waitrose and I do like their brand stuff. It's, quite decent, but other than that, the, the, tea that, you know, it's, it's gotta be Yorkshire tea. It's, I mean, I'm from the North. They don't make tea from as far up as I am. So that's the nearest one, but Yorkshire tea is, is really good tea and they have really good, campaigns. So they've got, ⁓ Sarah Lancashire and I don't know if you watched Happy Valley. Jonathan Thomas (20:28) ⁓ They do. Toni (Summers) Hargis (20:43) highly recommend Happy Valley and she played a police woman and they've got her on the Yorkshire tea commercials in the character from Happy Valley and someone's lost their biscuits, know, someone's stolen from somebody else's drawer and all but so their ad campaigns are really good as well. So yeah, and I do like the odd cup of Earl Grey still, but interestingly, my favorite ever Earl Grey was from ⁓ Argo tea. Jonathan Thomas (20:53) Perfect. Toni (Summers) Hargis (21:10) You know that chain, I don't know whether it's still around in Chicago and they did an Earl Grey and it was extra creamy. It was so delicious and I've never matched that. Jonathan Thomas (21:19) So you mentioned Waitrose. I think that's a fun digression for us to go on. Let's talk about the cultural stratification of the various grocery store chains in Britain. Because now, I'd have to call you out, but Waitrose is the posh grocery store. ⁓ So let's talk about the cultural differences with the grocery stores. Toni (Summers) Hargis (21:34) We do have a Morrison's right around the corner. Yeah, so yeah, I mean, the Waitrose, yeah, you you know, you know, you're in a sort of a semi gentile neighborhood when you get a Waitrose. And there is a Facebook page. And I think it's I can't remember if it was ever a blog, but it's called overheard in Waitrose. And that, you know, they're ridiculously snobby things, you know, that things that are supposed to have been said, children asking for brioche and stuff like that, you know. But it is funny. yeah, so Waitrose is up there. Marks and Spencer, Marks and Spencer Food Hall, which is, I've got one of those as well. ⁓ And that is really good food, but it's not cheap, but it is really good food. And then I think the next layer is Morrison's, Tesco and Sainsbury's. But I don't have many of them. I have to drive to them. I can walk to my Waitrose. That's my excuse. And then, but then we've got Aldi and Lidl, which, you know, I think are in the States as well. And there's, there's a sort of pride, even though they're cheaper, there's a pride in going to them. Because, you know, why pay Waitrose prices when you can go to Aldi? And they actually do some, you know, sometimes the good cheap wines are the ones from Aldi and Lidl. Jonathan Thomas (22:46) Well, Aldi is, yeah. Toni (Summers) Hargis (23:04) So we have, you know, in the Sunday newspapers, for example, you'll have a wine expert and they will do an under 10 pound, you know, here's your wines for under 10 pound. And they're quite often Aldi and Lidl. So. Jonathan Thomas (23:04) Yeah. Yeah, I've found we've been to all different kinds of grocery stores on our travels and we found that even the lower range groceries at somewhere like Aldi or Little are actually the quality of the food is just as good. It's just got a lower price and how sensible to get good quality for a lower price. Toni (Summers) Hargis (23:28) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I think what with Waitrose and Marks and Spencer, what a lot of people like is they do these beautiful pre-packaged salads. You know, they're just very unusual. It's not just lettuce and that sort of thing. So a lot of people use them for that. Yeah. Jonathan Thomas (23:50) Yeah, that's one thing we always enjoy when we self cater is the ready meals. Cause a lot of them are fresh and made and in the store and we don't really have that here. Like you can get a rotisserie chicken and that's about it at the grocery store around here. Toni (Summers) Hargis (23:54) Mm Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, there's a lot of and they're good. There's a company here called Cook, and it's frozen meals and you they are absolutely superb. You get them delivered frozen, you cook them from frozen. I've got a there's a shop on my high street so I can actually just go to cook. And it gives you all the calorie information and you know, it's really good food. But all the supermarkets do those, know, the meals for one, meals for two, frozen or fresh, you know, so it's really easy to eat well here. And I know everyone thinks that British food is terrible, but it's not. And it has way fewer additives for the record. Jonathan Thomas (24:33) No. Yeah, I, I've got a friend who all he does is rail about how terrible British food is. And I'm like, have you really been there in the last 25 years? Cause the food's actually really good. I mean, not just the staples, like, you know, a steak and Guinness pie or fish and chips, but like, there's a lot of very nice restaurants, especially in London. There's a, and even when you go into the countryside and travel to smaller towns and villages, there's usually nice restaurants that serve local well-made produce and. Toni (Summers) Hargis (24:47) Mm-mm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Jonathan Thomas (25:09) You don't really see that a lot here. Yeah. Toni (Summers) Hargis (25:09) and the gourmet pubs, it's sort of, it's calmed down a little because it used to be there were gourmet pubs all over the place, but there are still quite a lot of country pubs that are renowned. know, people go for miles because the food is so good, which, know, decades ago, that was not the case. It wasn't. you know, the old, Britain used to be bad food, but it's just not anymore. Jonathan Thomas (25:34) know. Yeah, I know a lot of like, I won't tell people my favorite pub, favorite country pub, because I don't want to get ruined by by the world. But like, you know, one of the our favorite things to do is to go to a country pub on a Sunday, and then go for a walk at a National Trust property. And it's really easy to find a good quality country pub that's that's around in the local area that makes fresh ingredients and you have a good hearty meal and it won't you know, it cost a fortune. Toni (Summers) Hargis (25:41) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, sometimes it costs a fortune. mean, the prices in London are just eye watering. But I did find I have found in recent years, America is not as cheap as it used to be. So I don't know whether Americans coming here would find it as expensive as they used to. But ⁓ it's London's not cheap. Jonathan Thomas (26:08) Yeah. Well, I suppose it depends too on what you're planning eating. Like I know my wife and I could go to Chicago and have a nice, a fancy dinner out for $200 for the two of us. We could probably do for under 200 pounds, similar dinner in London, but even out here in Indiana, where we are at, like the nice restaurants are like the prices are getting very Chicago prices. And it's really surprising. Do you find that? Toni (Summers) Hargis (26:34) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, yeah. Mm-hmm. Jonathan Thomas (26:51) the prices in your local community are kind of on parity with London. Toni (Summers) Hargis (26:55) Yeah, because I mean, I'm living in one of the what they call the home counties. So it's a commuter county around London. And it's just as expensive here. Probably, you know, for example, well, the last time I was in London, a friend of mine ordered a glass of wine, because she didn't like the wine that everybody else was drinking. It was 16 pounds. So you'd probably pay 10, where I am 10 or 12. So maybe not quite as expensive, but it's not cheap. You know, it's It's not a cheap country. Jonathan Thomas (27:26) Do you find yourself popping into London a lot? Toni (Summers) Hargis (27:29) Yes, I do. I've got my train is 30 minutes. And there's about four, just like every 15 minutes, there's a train into London. It's very, very easy. And a lot of my friends that I was at university with who live in and around London, but they can live 50 miles away from me because we're on the other side of the M25 or something like that. So it's, and it's easy for all of us to get into London. So yes, I mean, I'm going in tomorrow to see an exhibition. with a friend who lives in the Cotswolds and she's just getting the train in. But I mean, if I drove to hers, it would take longer. well, I'm going, I don't know whether you're familiar with it, a guy called Grayson Perry. Yeah, so he's doing, he's written a book and he's doing a tour, speaking tour later, which I'm going to. And I just happened to stay with this friend that I'm seeing tomorrow. Jonathan Thomas (28:05) It would take you two hours to get there. Well, what exhibition? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Toni (Summers) Hargis (28:26) and she had his book and it's called Delusions of Grandeur and he's doing an exhibition of all of his artwork for the book, which is off the wall, very crazy as is he. ⁓ And I wouldn't normally go to something like that, but he's just a really nice man. He, during COVID, he did, I can't remember the name of the art competition, but he did an art competition for normal people on TV during COVID and he became the nation's sweetheart. He is such a kind man. Jonathan Thomas (28:34) Yeah. Yes. ⁓ Yes. Toni (Summers) Hargis (28:54) I mean, he's very strange and he sometimes dresses up. He's older and he's not, you know, he's not what we would call conventionally good looking. He's eccentric looking and he quite often dresses in women's clothing, but it's not great women's clothing. He's just really, you know, but I was just interested to see his art. So yeah. Jonathan Thomas (29:15) Yeah, I've seen his art shows on usually they're on channel four and he's really interesting, really interesting perspective. ⁓ Toni (Summers) Hargis (29:19) Mm Yes. Yeah. And his book, I haven't read the book, need to, I need to, there's one that he wrote quite a few years ago. He was talking about toxic masculinity and how to be a good man way before everyone who's doing it now. He was ahead of his time. Jonathan Thomas (29:38) Yeah, so, ⁓ you know, the national gallery is at Sainsbury wing is reopening in a couple of weeks and they've rehung the gallery. So you'll have to go. Yeah, I got, I get the, I get the PR emails from the national gallery, which is nice. I like getting the PR emails, but I hate getting the PR invites because they're like, you could come to this if you're in London. Toni (Summers) Hargis (29:47) ⁓ that's my next trip then! Yeah. ⁓ yeah, pay my expenses! ⁓ Jonathan Thomas (30:03) Hate. Right. ⁓ So what are some other cultural things that have really surprised you in the last couple of years? Toni (Summers) Hargis (30:15) I think, I mean, so we're not going to talk politics because, no we're not, but there's been some surprises there, but we will just not go there. Jonathan Thomas (30:19) No, no, this is a happy place. yeah, let's keep our listeners happy. Toni (Summers) Hargis (30:28) I think, well, and one of them is that there is, there's a lot, know, Brits go to the US a lot. And so the awareness or the knowledge of the states is a lot greater than it used to be. It used to be just from TV. And I was, you'd think in that case that Brits would understand American lifestyle, but of course they're going to Florida and they're going to New York and they're going to LA. They're not going to the heartland. Jonathan Thomas (30:51) No, yeah. Toni (Summers) Hargis (30:56) So even though, this is not meant to be critical, but even though they go to the states a lot and they think they know the states, they don't. They don't know how Americans, how normal Americans live. And I mean, to a certain extent, we're watching shows like, what's that one, Selling Sunset. That's huge here, absolutely huge. ⁓ Jonathan Thomas (31:16) Really? Toni (Summers) Hargis (31:18) And stranger things and the diplomat, that was big, but none of them are about normal American life. So there are still these illusions of a much fancier lifestyle, I think, than most Americans actually live. Which is quite, and that's always been the case. Everybody, you know, everybody always used to think that all Americans lived in these massive Brady Bunch style houses with pools right outside. Jonathan Thomas (31:26) ⁓ Yeah, that's interesting. Toni (Summers) Hargis (31:47) and that sort of thing. that's interesting because it hasn't really changed that much. Jonathan Thomas (31:53) Well, and the corollary to that is Americans, when they visit Britain, like 90 % of them are just going to go to London, and that's Britain to them. And that frustrates British people to no end. like, there's a whole country here. Toni (Summers) Hargis (32:02) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, it's true. I mean, I'm not sure. Well, I guess there are as many differences in this country. I the US is so huge. You know, you can go from Cape Cod to the Sedona to New Orleans and have completely different experiences. But I mean, you sort of can in the UK. Especially if you go to Scotland and then London or something like that. Yeah, but yeah, it is. Jonathan Thomas (32:15) Yeah. Yeah. Toni (Summers) Hargis (32:34) It's not, London isn't the way we all live. mean, some of us do, but it's full of tourists anyway. Jonathan Thomas (32:43) Yeah, yeah, that's the thing is, is good luck finding a lot of British people on London because there's so many tourists like I mean, yeah. Toni (Summers) Hargis (32:49) It is packed from about now. Well, Easter, all the way through to the end of the summer. One of the last, I remember last summer I went and I got the tube to Piccadilly Circus, couldn't get up the stairs. There were so many people ⁓ just trying to get up and down and just milling around Piccadilly Circus. You couldn't actually get up out of the tube station. And it was also like that at Christmas when they switched the lights on in Regent Street. And I just... made the mistake of going in on a Saturday evening and you every we were literally shuffling through the streets. It was packed. Jonathan Thomas (33:18) Ugh. That's why we tell people, know, if you're going to do London, do the bumper seasons, you know, do the, you know, don't go in the summer. It's going to be hot and there's no air conditioning. So go in the bumper seasons, be less crowded, you know, and, and we, we also were big advocates to telling people just to get out of London altogether. Um, you know, Britain has several world-class cities with plenty of history and heritage. Yeah. It doesn't, doesn't have Buckingham Palace or the Tower of London, but they're still. Toni (Summers) Hargis (33:28) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Jonathan Thomas (33:49) plenty of interesting things to see and do. You just gotta get out of London. Toni (Summers) Hargis (33:51) Yeah. you can, mean, there's some places you can get to Cambridge in an hour. Mind you, that's full of tourists as well in the summer, but I would have said Oxford, but that's even worse. The last time I went to Oxford, I went in and drove straight out the other side, because we couldn't even get parked. You know, it's... Jonathan Thomas (33:57) Yeah. Yeah. That's why they're like, use the park and ride. And I'm like, the park and ride's really confusing to Americans. I'm sorry. Toni (Summers) Hargis (34:13) Yeah, yeah, yeah, but but yeah, train train is great. I mean, you know, and it's, it's not cheap, but you can get travel deals, you know, you can get all sorts of you can combine this, that and the other if you're traveling three or more people. And if you've managed to find a station where there's still a ticket office, they are the people working there will tell you the cheapest way to get from A to B, they're really helpful. Jonathan Thomas (34:36) Yeah, there's all kinds of hacks you can do like splitting your ticket and things like that. Yeah, that's never get in the way of a British person trying to get a deal on a train ticket. ⁓ There's whole YouTube subcultures on bus and train travel in the UK. Toni (Summers) Hargis (34:38) Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Hahaha! Yeah, I still don't understand split tickets, but nevermind. Do it. Yeah, well, I use train line, I find very easy. So I can just go on train line, find out where my trains are, you can actually buy them, you know, on train line, and they're always banging on about split tickets. So yeah. Jonathan Thomas (34:57) You don't have to understand it. Just go with it. Just go with it. Yeah. Yeah, that's the thing is, as I love train line as well, it makes it super easy to just find tickets to where you go. But if you talk to real rail dogs, they're like, never use train line. You're overpaying directly with the, directly with the, with the, with the railway. Toni (Summers) Hargis (35:23) really? yeah, no, I don't know. That's right. There was a case last year and it was awful actually, this young kid, he was only about 17 or 18 and he bought his ticket on train line. And for some reason, something went wrong. He either got on the wrong train or something and then he got fined and he tried to appeal it and the fines kept going up. So he ended up owing about 300 pounds. And one of the decisions at the end was he didn't have a physical ticket. And if you buy through a third party, you don't get the ticket. It's online. So that's one of the reasons why I always go, I get a ticket when I go to the station, because my luck, that will happen to me. Jonathan Thomas (36:07) Yeah, it's always the edge cases that can catch you up. So you mentioned being detached from British culture and British TV for so long. Have you played catch up or what are some of your favorite TV shows you've watched in recent years where you're like, oh, I finally understand that reference. Toni (Summers) Hargis (36:10) Mmm. ⁓ There weren't that many to be honest. mean, you know, I came back there's still a few of the same characters in Coronation Street and East Enders and you just think hang on a minute. They're still alive. ⁓ But and I didn't I did not get sucked back into watching those but I mean there's been some great dramas on and you know, I am there was I think the second series or whatever of Happy Valley came back out when I was here. So that was a good one to watch. But to be honest, what I went back to watch was Yellowstone. Because I hadn't seen it and everyone was going on about Yellowstone and the other one that I finally, there was so many people said, you have to watch Ted Lasso. Jonathan Thomas (37:03) You Yeah. Toni (Summers) Hargis (37:15) And I, so I binged that here and it was really, really good. ⁓ You know, I wish I'd watched that one earlier, but yeah, no, so I kind of just binge ⁓ things if there's an end to them. I'm not going to binge something that I, mind you, I binged, what was it, Virgin River? Have you been watching Virgin River? It's so schmaltzy, but yeah. But no, I've really enjoyed. Jonathan Thomas (37:19) Yeah. Toni (Summers) Hargis (37:42) the drama and I've also got a subscription to the National Theatre at Home. So they've put a lot of the really good plays online and it's not that expensive. It was like 90 pounds for the whole year. Jonathan Thomas (37:54) No. I think we can get that here as well. Toni (Summers) Hargis (37:59) And that I've been watching quite a lot of that stuff. So that was really good. But I've been going into London to theater. So that's been my treat to myself. I've seen, I mean, but I saw things like, saw Sarah Jessica Parker in the Plaza, what's it called? Plaza Suite. So it's not all English stuff, but yeah, I've seen some really good stuff. Jonathan Thomas (38:07) Well, I mean, you're there. Why not? Yeah, I know there's some really good plays with some big names coming down the line in the next few months. Toni (Summers) Hargis (38:32) And there's one cool, and it's just been extended and it's called Operation Mincemeat. And they made a movie about it years ago. And I went to see that. I don't even like musicals. And I went, I didn't know what I was watching. It is really good. Cause there's only five of them on stage and they do all these different parts. And it's really, and you know, it's funny in parts and it's highly recommended and they just extended it. Jonathan Thomas (38:37) Yeah, I heard that's... yeah. so bizarre that they turn a story about a cadaver into a fun musical. If anybody could do it, it's the British, like I just, it's baffling. Toni (Summers) Hargis (38:57) no! I think there's a reason why my friend didn't tell me the plot or, you know, she did, because I would have thought, ⁓ I don't think I want to see that. But no, it was really, really good. Jonathan Thomas (39:11) The movie's really good, but it's not a musical. It's just a straight historical drama. Toni (Summers) Hargis (39:14) Yeah, no, this is, yeah, I mean, for the most part, there's only one part in the play that, you know, it is quite moving. ⁓ But and it's when they're writing the letter ⁓ from this pretend person. And one of the women in it's somebody's secretary, and she starts saying, she starts writing it, you know, saying what the word should be, and you suddenly realize that she's talking about her. own fiance who never came back from World War I. And you could hear a pin drop. mean that. And the actor, it was actually a guy dressed up in pearls because they were doing all these different parts. he was, everybody on stage was crying as well. It was really moving. But other than that, it was like, it was almost farcical. Jonathan Thomas (40:00) So have you done witness for the prosecution at County Hall? Toni (Summers) Hargis (40:04) No, I haven't done that one. Okay. Jonathan Thomas (40:05) Highly recommend that one and if you want to be in the play, you can get a jury ticket and then you can participate in the jury as they're deliberating the outcome of the trial and you get to see County Hall, which is a treaty in itself. Toni (Summers) Hargis (40:12) yeah! Ooh. Oh, that would be good. And on the National Theatre one, they've got Jodie Comer's Prima Fetii. It's called, it's just a one woman show. I don't know how she does it. And that's going, I think she's touring with that. I think she's touring globally with that. So they've got that one on there. That was really good. Jonathan Thomas (40:29) Mm. So, well, back to your book. Now, ⁓ if you were writing this book now, what are some additional chapters you would add to it that now that you have all this experience having moved back? Toni (Summers) Hargis (40:41) you I think, you know, I'm trying to think back, you know, what I was writing about as a repat, but I think, you know, there's a chapter, and this is, you know, just to remind listeners, this is a book for, I wrote it for people who were sort of moving here, rather than just a straight tourist book. So there are chapters about bills, you know, utilities. And I think that was one of the hardest things I had to deal with when I came back because... ⁓ I just didn't understand the TV setup. didn't understand the companies and that sort of thing. didn't know who and then like my utility bill, my gas and electric is combined. And then I have a smart meter. Smart meters are huge in this country and they basically are a little ticking like a little ticker tape thing that you have on your countertop and it tells you Jonathan Thomas (41:23) council tax. Toni (Summers) Hargis (41:44) to the second how much energy you're using. you almost wanna put it in the trash. ⁓ So that kind of thing is very different from what I was used to in the US. then shopping is all not, there's not, online shopping is pretty much the same. But ⁓ I remember the first, one of the first times we went to a supermarket here and we were at the checkout and the woman handed me a green disc. And we're all looking at each other going, what, is this? I said, I'd just, let's just leave, come on. And I had to text my cousin to say, what do I do with this green disc? Um, and it was for charity. So you just choose your charity and drop it in the, there were three sort of bins and the, the, the charity with the most green tokens, the store would give some money to that was all I had no idea. And there's just things like that. And, know, the supermarket, uh, trolleys, the carts. you quite often have to have a pound coin and you put that in. If you don't have a pound coin you cannot get a cart because it's to stop them being stolen. and you can buy little key ⁓ chains with a disc that's just like a pound coin so people have them and they just use them all the time. Jonathan Thomas (42:49) Right, and who has pound coins now? I always got to to circumvent the system, right? It's subversive. I remember one of my fun travel memories and I was ⁓ in ⁓ Swindon. I was going to a museum there and they had just transitioned to the new pound coin and the car park was paying display. And so they had to pay a guy to stand there. Toni (Summers) Hargis (43:05) Yeah, I know. ⁓ ⁓ god. Jonathan Thomas (43:27) and basically trade the old pound coins for the new pound coins or the new pound coins for the old ones so they would work at the machine and all I could think is this is the most British solution to this problem I can imagine just paying somebody to take the new coins to give you the old coins. Toni (Summers) Hargis (43:29) ⁓ Mmm. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. mean, the other thing talking about cars and parking and everything like that, there's a lot of websites, apps here for parking. when I first arrived back, every time, every car park had a different management company. So you'd like have to stand there and download the app and then attach your card to it and all that sort of thing. But now they all seem to, they've all adopted more than one company. So I have Ringo. And I don't know whether I've never had to use anything like this in the States, but you basically stand next to the meter, the parking, the pay machine, and you get your app up and it will tell you where you are. you just say, okay, I want to be up this, I want to pay this machine for two hours. And you do it through your phone. And then it will message you when you're sitting in a bar or restaurant or a theater or whatever. And it will say your meter's about to run out. Do you want to add more money? And you can do it from, so everybody does that, which is fabulous. So. Jonathan Thomas (44:42) We have that now in Chicago. We have for street parking, like 15 years ago, they sold the parking meters, which don't even get Chicago and started on that. But the benefit of that is the company that actually innovated and now they have everything's electronic and there's an app. And then when you are in a zone where there's parking, there's a code on the street and you put the code in the app and then you pick your parking and it notifies you when your time is almost up. It's great. Toni (Summers) Hargis (44:47) Yeah. yeah. I remember that. that's good. Yeah, it's great. Although I was in Liverpool two weeks ago and I went to see one of the big cathedrals and I know I paid and I just got a 15 pound fine with a photo of my car. Like, so I don't know what happened but apparently I didn't pay and if you don't pay within 24 hours that 15 pound fine went up to 45 and then it doubles and so. Jonathan Thomas (45:11) Yeah. Yeah, I learned that lesson with the congestion charge. ⁓ When I rented a car in October, I thought I rented the car in the congestion zone. So I didn't think that I had to pay the congestion charge. And it turns out, well, I like a week after we got back from our trip, I got notification from the car rental company. They're like, you drove into the congestion charge zone and it's a hundred and forty pound fine. They're like, please call us back and give us your credit card. And I'm like, Toni (Summers) Hargis (45:37) Mm. ⁓ no. ⁓ Yeah. Jonathan Thomas (46:02) 140 pounds, it's only like 12 pounds for the congestion charge. What? You know, it's gotta be careful with that stuff. Toni (Summers) Hargis (46:06) Yeah, no. And we have also now the not just congestion, but we have ULEZ, U-L-E-Z. it's basically the, you know, if you have diesel cars or you have older cars that aren't compliant with the emissions and you have to pay, I think it's 12 pounds to go into ULEZ zones as well. So everybody with an old car is not happy. Jonathan Thomas (46:15) Hmm. Yeah. And that Well, that's the thing is the used car market in Britain is really weird because these cars are so devalued now because of that, because they can't pass the emissions testing, which is wild, weird, weird, cultural. And no one wants to hear talking about cultural car emissions. Toni (Summers) Hargis (46:40) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Jonathan Thomas (46:50) so, wrapping up, what can Anglotopia readers look forward to in your new column in the coming months? What are some things that you wanna write about and how can they get in touch with you if they have questions? Toni (Summers) Hargis (47:03) So I would like to do what I have always done is take a topic and it will be either something that bugs me, you know, like customer service, or it can be something that's been in the news or that there's a new change coming in and I'll write about what's happening in the UK and maybe a comparison to the US if it's relevant. If it's not, then I'll just tell everybody what's going on. You know, and as I said, give them the skinny on any local eccentric news like, you know, Morris dancing is always a good one. Or there's cheese throwing competitions. There's all sorts of stuff, especially in the summer. So I'm, I'd be doing something like that. But I'm also open to suggestions. ⁓ So if anyone has a question or wants me to look further into any kind of topic, I'm more than happy to do that. ⁓ I think they can contact me, they can contact me via you or you know, via Anglotopia And I'm also at Tony Hargis, uk at gmail.com is the one that you can reach me on. Jonathan Thomas (48:13) Lovely. I can't wait to read your new articles and I, it's going to be a joy to edit because that, well, for one, I never have to edit your stuff because it's always, it's always great when you submit it and I get to, I get to be the first one to read it and I can't wait to share it with our Anglotopia's followers. So, well, thank you so much for appearing on the podcast. ⁓ Like I said, I can't wait to read your posts. Check out Tony's book, which is available on ebook for major publishers. If you can't find the. Toni (Summers) Hargis (48:30) Thank you. Who knows, I may one day write an update. I know. Jonathan Thomas (48:44) You should like, totally should. ⁓ the link will be in the show notes. In the meantime, if you enjoyed the Anglotopia podcast, please like us, subscribe, or join the friends of Anglotopia club to support great long form writing about Britain and get early podcast episodes until next time. I'm Jonathan Thomas. And thank you for listening to the Anglotopia podcast.