Jonathan Thomas (00:00) Welcome to the Angotopia podcast the positive quarter internet where we talk about all things lovely British and history and culture. And today we have a special guest with us. We have Jules Mitra and we're going to talk about travel in the West country of England with a focus on Bath and the Cotswolds. Jules is the founder of In and Around Bath, a bespoke travel company that specializes in guiding tourists around the West country and England with a focus on the areas around Bath. Jules is the expert on travel and a big proponent of thoughtful travel and experience all the wonderful things the West country has to offer that are more off the beaten path. Their tagline is get ready to discover England, the England you've always dreamt of, which sounds good to me. Welcome Jules. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (00:45) Hi Jonathan, how are you? Yeah, really well. Really, really well. I'm actually very excited to be being interviewed. What a lot of fun. So, yeah, very keen to kind of have a chat with you and share what I can. Jonathan Thomas (00:47) Good, how are you? So one of the things that we like to do or try to do with our guests is ask them if they have a cup of tea with them and what tea they're drinking. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (01:05) Yes, I do. And actually, I'm glad you mentioned that because I literally ran down, as you'll know, just before we started, said, I haven't got my cup of tea, which is so cliche, but it's true. And what am I drinking? It's not particularly exciting. It's Tetley, which is one of our big brands. I'm very much an English breakfast kind of builder's tea kind of guy. And one of the things that they started doing in lockdown is they started doing these big bags of like 440 tea bags with a sealable top. and I hate shopping, so nowadays I'm just like, get one of those, it lasts for months, and I'm set. So, yeah, nothing particularly salubrious. Although we do go have more salubrious tea, obviously, when we're out and about, but this is my everyday. Jonathan Thomas (01:46) Tetleys is great, I like Tetleys. I'm drinking Yorkshire tea. I also buy it in six months supplies at the time. It's early in the morning here, we're recording, it's the afternoon for you and this is my normal morning cup of tea. Good strong cup of Yorkshire to wake you up. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (01:53) Yep. Absolutely, and I don't know about you, but I am a tea guy so coffee is fine But I'm a yeah five six cups of tea a day. It's it's it's my it's my go -to Jonathan Thomas (02:13) Sounds good to me. So, all right, well, let's dive right into the questions I have prepared for you and then we'll see where the conversation goes and hopefully we'll have a lovely chat about travel in the West Country, which is my favorite part of England. So please start by giving us the elevator pitch for in and around bath. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (02:20) Sure. Yeah sure, I said in Beyond Bath by the way just so you know. Yeah, no problem at all. Yeah, so I said up in Beyond Bath in 2016, 2017. I'm a big traveler myself and what I've realized over time is I go for the big stuff but it's the small stuff that has the impact. It's the relationships, the experiences you don't anticipate. And what we do at Beyond Bath is... Jonathan Thomas (02:34) in and beyond that. Sorry, sorry, sorry. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (02:51) We share the Britain that, or the England that I love and revere, the historical, the cultural, the landscapes, those kind of gems that people imagine when they think of England, when they read the books, they see the TV shows. But very often nowadays, the places that we've all heard of are usually very busy and touristified and they don't have the magic. So what I try and do is share those must -sees, the places that people definitely want to see, but also kind of then take them off into the England they've always imagined to see those kind of places which I think exemplify our us, our culture, our history. In a way that is meaningful as well and that's also important. So not just go into places and go, isn't this a lovely village or this was built in 1403 by blah blah blah. But actually, why is this meaningful? Why is this relevant? And what's the story behind it which we can connect to? And that's kind of what we do. In a way which I think is much more intimate and relaxed and meaningful than most tools. It's really about connection. Jonathan Thomas (03:49) That sounds really nice. Now do you get a lot of Americans on your tours? Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (03:53) Yes, I'm glad you asked that because yes, I mean, our core market, I would say, is the American market. North American market, should I say. We get a good smattering of Canadians as well. But yeah, 90%, I would say, of the people we serve are American tourists who, again, looking for that, they want to connect. with our culture and our history much more, they're coming to dive a little bit deeper rather than just kind of go from point to point and hitting all the big stops. And so that's our approach and that's who we serve. Jonathan Thomas (04:27) That kind of leads me into my next question. So, like walk me through a typical tour. How are they different from a big coach bus tour where there's 50 people all piling into a coach and going to an attraction? What's different about you? What do you do differently? Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (04:41) The short answer is everything. I'll break that down. I mean, for me, I've always been a huge traveller since I was three years old. My dad come from Malaysia. When I was three years old, my uncle who was studying in the UK went back to Malaysia with me for my auntie's wedding. And what I've always noticed is... that the impersonal, going to the big places is very impersonal, being pushed around is very stressful. And as a traveller, I've realised that actually having that time, that space, that care is what makes things really come alive. So we only do tours of, I mean we do sometimes do larger groups of up to 16 if there's a family, for example, three generational family, grandparents, parents and kids coming on the tour. But generally what we do is we run tours for up to eight people because in my experience and the way that I see it, Eight people is like a dinner party. And if you've got up to eight people, you can connect and talk with each of those people in a day. Whereas you can't with a group that's bigger. It becomes very much a person at the front talking at everybody else. And they'll be able to fit into their itinerary and their agenda, which is, I think, the typical tour experience. And so you might get to see a lot. But it doesn't feel personal. You don't get to ask those questions. You don't get to have those conversations. in those bigger kind of groups. And so for me, that fundamental difference of going to a smaller group where we can really engage and understand, tune into who our guests are. And actually a lot of what we do often isn't us talking about places at all, it's about talking about us and sharing those things about us that make us come alive. And to me that's actually the most important thing, isn't it? Because for all of us, if we go back and we look at anything that is significant in our lives, for example, if we go back to school, and you think about those teachers that you had at school, you'll remember the ones that were either really good because they somehow touched you, or you'll remember the ones that were really bad because they somehow traumatized you. But for us to have meaningful emotional experiences, it really is about relationship. And so for me, smaller groups really inculcates... that opportunity to really connect with people, to get to understand them and to engage. So for a fundamental level, that to me is a big difference. But of course you also get a lot of tour guides. Tour guides have been around for a long time now. And the thing that I also have always found frustrating when I travel myself, and one of the things that I've done is I created a tour company that I would look for if I go abroad. And one of the things that I find so frustrating is tour guides. There's a power, there's a hierarchy there. And you usually have the tour guide, it's like, I'm the, I'm the, what's the word I'm looking for? I'm the authority, I know what's gonna happen, I know what's best, and you're just gonna be passive and have to listen to what I say and go where I go. And usually that, the way that tour guides explain things, it's very academic, it's very much like, this house was built in 1703 by the third Marquis of Lansdowne and his architect was blah blah blah. And my attitude is, I don't care. unless you make these things connect with me, unless you make these things have meaning for me, it's just stuff, it's just information. And I think a lot of tour guides tend to do that, they feel safe by going, actually, it's all about what I know and being in control. And for me, actually, as a tour guide and as a tour company, of course, we have ultimate control because we understand, you know, we know what the itinerary is, we know the routes, and of course, we're in our own space, but it's about actually connecting with people. and sharing things in a way that is meaningful to them, in a way that they can engage with. So to give you an example of one of our tours, we do a tour called Stonehenge and Secret England. And of course, again, we like to mix the must -sees with the unseen hidden gems. And so that's one of our big approaches. Stonehenge is a must -see. People who come to this area, they're going to want to see Stonehenge. So we do that on this tour, and we do it in the morning first thing, and we get to Stonehenge. And I think we do probably the best, I... And this is from the feedback we get, right? Not necessarily what I think, but I think we do one of the best tours of Stonehenge because when we go there, it's not just, again, these were built, you know, Stonehenge was first developed in 3 ,100 BC and there's 56 stones on the outside. We're much more like, who built this, when, why? Let's look at the wider context of the landscape which it's built in. Let's explore the... the features of all the challenges with building it. How have they got these stones here and why? Why would they take these particular stones from over there or why here? Why in this particular landscape and how was it used? So we kind of explore those kind of questions, I think in a much more engaging way. And we'll do that really well and then give people time to go and explore the stone circle on their own pace. Because again, that to me is something that's important as a tour guide. It's not just how... you delivering and holding people's hands. It's also giving them the autonomy to kind of explore things sometimes at their own pace in a safe way where they're not going to wander off, you know, get lost or anything like that. But that time away from a guide is as important as that time with a guide. So that's important. What we do after that is we go for lunch in, I think, one of the most extraordinary country inns. in the area, again, which you would not be able to find if you didn't know about it. Because again, that to me is the benefit of having somebody who is a local who's passionate going alongside you because they will have those ins. And I'm using that word differently there. Not the inn, but they'll have those ways in, should I say, to really go, yeah, this is an amazing place. It's not on the tourist radar. Jonathan Thomas (10:07) Yeah. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (10:14) but that's part of its charm. And so one of our jobs is we do that, we share kind of places which, and again my attitude is if I had family or friends coming to stay with me, where would I take them and why? And of course I'm going to take them to Stonehenge. But also, there's this amazing village here and it's got this fabulous pub and this pub dates back to the 1670s and it's got this kind of story connected with it. And of course, the food and drink are amazing, the service is amazing, and the atmosphere is amazing as well. That's what we share. That's creating something that's really powerful. And we don't share a lot of these places as well on our itineraries or on our marketing for two reasons. Partly, we don't want to be the people that let's the cat out of the bag and then we're like, here it is on Instagram, blah, blah, blah, come look at this. And then it gets swamped with huge coach parties from China or Europe or wherever it might be. And that environment, that community is kind of completely overrun by mass tourism. So we don't want to do that. So we hold those places close to our chest often. But also, my attitude is, and it's a bit like, again, spoilers with a TV show or a book or a theatre show. You know, it's... Part of the experience is experiencing those kind of twists or whatever it might be in the moment. And if you kind of go, here's the itinerary, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, that opportunity for people to come across something that gives them that moment of pure delight is lost. if they're already anticipating it, because they already know what's coming. And so we love to kind of build these itineraries where, yep, Stonehenge is definitely part of it, but now we're going to take you into this stunning piece of England, which you've not heard or seen about, but it's going to evoke everything you've always imagined about England. And... you're gonna come round that corner, we're gonna turn up at a grand house or garden for example, that is far too small to have an international presence, but it's gonna blow you away. And I want people to have that experience in that moment, which they do. So that tour there, for example, then, after we've gone for lunch, we're gonna explore, I think, two villages which are... absolutely extraordinary beautiful, very historic, both of them date back over a thousand years and both of them have features in them, one is a church, one is a medieval room which I won't say too much about but they're absolutely extraordinary not just because of the buildings themselves but the stories connected to them and how they relate to us today and that to me is what makes our tours really special, it's that thought about going a little bit deeper. Jonathan Thomas (12:13) Thanks. Bye. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (12:38) and connecting a bit more meaningfully, which I think a lot of, if you're thinking on the level of a tour is about just ticking things off for sightseeing, you don't get. And that's our differentiator, I'd say. Jonathan Thomas (12:53) That sounds fantastic. I like the idea that there's this secret England that you have the keys to and that, you know, you're going to show experiences and people in places that people can't normally get. And I know as American travelers and all the, in our early travel days, we were box -ticking tourists trying to see everything we possibly could. And eventually though, that light kind of faded away and we realized that the... The things that we enjoyed most were the cultural encounters we had, the people we met, the friends we made, and not just, we saw a pretty thing, you know? And I think that it leads to a more holistic experience, sort of pretending to be a temporary local. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (13:34) Yes, exactly. And there's a place for that as well. Right, because like when I was a young traveller, of course, again, it was about ticking things off, getting to places. I want to go to places because I've heard of it. And there's a difference to me, again, between what I call a mature market or a mature traveller and a new mature traveller. And that's not obviously based on their personal maturity. But when you're travelling for the first time, you just want to see places, don't you? You want to go, I've been there, I've seen it. That's amazing. And as I think you become more... experience as a traveller, you want to connect more. You know, when I travel now, I want to go to other countries and I want to get under their skin. I want to kind of really connect, as you say, with those locals. And the great thing for me about travel as well is travel is such a wonderful mechanism for broadening my own personal growth in terms of my understanding of other people, of myself, of seeing. how my country is really good in some ways, but how other countries do other things and they can be better. And that opportunity to connect and share ideas and explore ideas is also really powerful. And that's another thing that I think actually is something that's so special with smaller tours. The conversations you have, I think, tend to be very, very open and heartfelt. But also one of the things that I really notice, and again, particularly with American audience, and I hope you don't mind me saying this, Jonathan, is, There's a lot of tension in the US, I think, and has been over the last eight or so years, possibly a bit longer, because the political kind of extremities are moving further apart. And there's a lot of tension where people then can get here and suddenly they can talk about things that they couldn't talk about with their own families. In a way, that's exploratory and safe to do so because you're not in that environment anymore. And that's one of those unspoken real values, I think, of travel, is just getting to express ourselves and... and maybe pick some of those unconscious biases or belief systems that have kind of just been seen in the back of our head and get those challenged a little bit and going, hang on a second, is this where it should be, is it not? And it's not about changing people's minds, it's just about having those open conversations and that is, to me, the, no, go on, no, yeah. Yes. Jonathan Thomas (15:35) Yeah, it's about exposure. And I know, you know, there's a lot of British TV and British film within American culture, and that's how a lot of people are introduced to England and Britain as a whole. But it's a facade, you know, made by movies and TV shows, and it's not readily representative of what really is culturally Britain. And so when you actually do travel there, you're presented with a completely different place that's different from what you saw on film and TV shows. But it's also, it's a more, it's a lovelier place because you get to see English people in their natural habitat. You get to see how they live. You get to see the things they care about. You know, one thing I love to do when I travel anywhere in Britain is to pick up the local newspaper, pick up the local newspaper and I see what is concerning the local parish council? What is concerning, you know, What are they mad about? What are they happy about? And it gives you a flavor of, could I possibly live here? What does it mean to be part of this culture? And I think the way you offer travel is the best way to do that. And I think that's awesome. To use an overuse an American word there. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (16:40) Yeah. thank you. Well, it's funny because actually, since I've been doing this since 2017 when I started really, I've adopted so many Americanisms. So awesome is one of them. The other one being restroom. I now ask people where the restroom is and it was like, do you mean toilet? I'm like, no, that's so vulgar. Restroom, let's use that metaphor. But no, you're absolutely right. And that's the thing that actually I think also brings meaning to me as a guide, right? Because again, when I started my business, Jonathan Thomas (16:56) Hahaha That's really funny. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (17:16) And I'm a former history and politics teacher as well and I was trying to get out of education and I was like, what do I do next in my life? And I've never really known what I wanted to do with my life. And I was like, well, what do I enjoy? What are my skills? What's the kind of work environment that I'd be happy in? And that's how I kind of came to this really. But what I didn't want to do was get into a point where it just becomes routine, where people are just, you know, you want to convey about and here's the tour and creating a tour company where... sameness, saminess and consistency is all about doing the same thing over and over because I was like, I'm going to get very bored with that very quickly. Where what I love is... The great thing about working again in the way that we do is I'm always learning. I'm always hearing other people's perspectives because it's an exchange. It's not a top -down, I'm the front of knowledge. You're here to just be recipients. There's an exchange of ideas, of perspectives, and so it's always fresh. And the other thing we love to do, of course, is adapt it when you've got a small group of people, you know, our itineraries, our tours, very carefully curated as they are. and we think about all the different elements about it, like down to the roots, like how do you go from here to here and make that a really interesting experience? Going down tiny ancient country lanes, going past beautiful cottages, how do we make this stop here meaningful? So every single part is carefully considered, but what we love to do as well is... It's like a concertina, you can kind of, if people are kind of not so engaged in this experience, that's not speaking to them, you can just kind of go, do you know what, we might move on a little bit quickly, more quickly here. Or they're having a great time at Stonehenge, well, we weren't gonna be meeting at this point, but I can just tell that they're really engaged in this. We'll just stretch that out. And it's, again, it's a lovely thing you can do with, when you're working on a relational level, rather than a transactional level as I see it. There's structure, there's, you know, people, our guests want to know what they're buying into, of course. But there's that space to adapt and to reflect the needs, the desires, the experiences of our guests. And that's a really wonderful thing. And it makes it so rewarding for us as well as a guide team, as a company, because every day, therefore, is different. And it's fresh and it's... Jonathan Thomas (19:11) Right. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (19:34) is engaging. Jonathan Thomas (19:35) So moving on from that, I thought I would, let's talk about the West Country. So you're based in Bath and that's kind of the core of your business. So what are some exciting things going on in Bath this year? What are some events that Americans would like to see and do or that you can take your clients to see and do? Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (19:58) So first of all, what I'll say before we continue, we're based in Bath and I'm actually all about getting people out of Bath. And Bath is, you know, it's a UNESCO World Heritage City, one of only two in Europe, the other being Venice. It's a stunning city, but I'm really all about, yeah, there's Bath there, what's nearby? So I think that's important to clarify. But there's so much to do in Bath. I mean, the Bath area and the Southwest to me is, and we live in a country, Jonathan Thomas (20:04) Okay. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (20:25) How do I best describe this? And you, I mean, Jonathan, you're an Anglophile, right? You've been here multiple times. You understand this implicitly. There's so much to do in everywhere you go. We are just littered with attractions, houses, gardens, countryside, and that countryside is varied as well. You can drive two hours and go through three or four different kind of natural kind of landscapes in that short time. There's so much to see. It's a great base bath. In Bath itself, of course, Bath is a historical city. It's got origins that date back pre -Roman to the Iron Age and beyond, when it was probably heavily populated because it was alongside a river, it has a spring. Bath itself, I don't know if you're aware of this, but it's basically the collapsed caldera of an extinct volcano. Jonathan Thomas (21:15) Didn't know that. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (21:15) Which is why, yeah, so again, it's a bit like Rome. It's said to be a city of seven hills. And those hills, which kind of form what would have been the rim of the caldera. And then you have in the middle, the springs on which Roman baths are based. That is the old vent, which is why you have these sulfuric waters bubbling up from deep underground. Jonathan Thomas (21:34) which is fascinating. See, I feel like I'm on a tour already. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (21:38) But it's, yeah, you know, so it's always pulled people in because of course, you know, you can imagine our Iron Age ancestors coming and going, hang on a second, we've got water here, which, and I'm really rubbish with Fahrenheit, but I've got feelings between high 80s to 90s degrees Fahrenheit bubbling up in a country that's, you know, temperate. There's something special here. So it's always been a pull for humans. And then the Romans come along, they turn that into... the Roman, you know, a Roman spa town, really. The Georgians come along after, it goes through a dark period in the Middle Ages, I'd say. Bath becomes a town for lepers in the Dark Ages because there's a belief that it has medical curative powers, these waters, and that's one of the kind of constant themes with the water from Bath. But today, having gone through a golden age of the Romans, a golden age of the Georgians, I think Bath is in its third golden age right now. It's become a very, very popular town, again, having had a bit of a quiet period, I'd say, in the Victorian industrial era. And so now it is one of the wealthiest towns in the UK, so buying in Bath is extremely expensive, but it also makes it a great place to come and stay because it's got amazing restaurants, it's got fantastic theatres, it's got a huge amount going on. inside it but also nearby. It's very accessible from London to the southwest to Wales. It's really well located for people who want to get out and about as well. But I'm talking too much here Jonathan, I've realised that the question really was what is there to do? And really essentially it's a cultural centre so if you're into culture, architecture, if those are your kind of interests and history. Jonathan Thomas (23:07) Ha ha ha. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (23:16) It is one of the top, I'd say top destinations in the whole of the UK. And it's got so much stuff going on. Years ago, had you asked me this question five to 10 years ago, I'd be able to go, it's got this festival, that festival, two or three things that I think might be interesting. Today, the calendar is littered with... with festivals, kind of themes, things going on at various times. So for example, I expect probably one of the things that your listeners might most be interested in is the Jane Austen Festival, which is something that takes place in September. And it's amazing because again, that started 10 years ago. Jonathan Thomas (23:48) Right, yeah. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (23:54) by a handful of Jane Austen aficionados who were really interested in kind of exploring her work and writing and to have a few workshops here and there, a few talks at some of the local venues. Now it is a mecca for thousands of Jane Austen fans from across the world coming far away as Japan, China, who turn up in Bath over those two, three weeks and dress up in bonnets and empire -lined dresses or high hats and tails and breeches. And that runs through late September, early October. We've got Oktoberfest coming this year. We have a wellness festival in January, February, which connects in again with Bath's kind of history as a town of healing and rejuvenation, which has been part of its history since the Roman times. We've got arts festivals in April. We have a food festival coming up in the next week or so. It's so busy now. And the other thing that we have in Bath, which is a huge draw, is the... Christmas markets and again only about 10 -15 years old and about 15 years ago Bath Council thought let's do a German Christmas market in Bath. Yeah well this is it, it's cross pollination nowadays I think but that you know it's one of the top in the country now and it attracts thousands and thousands and thousands of visitors from Jonathan Thomas (25:00) Nothing more English than a German Christmas burger, right? Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (25:15) from all over, particularly of course at that point of the year from the local region. And whereas it started just near the Abbey with a handful of huts, it now kind of spreads through the main high street to the Abbey kind of area. It spills over and it's extraordinary. So, yeah, I could keep going, but there's a lot to see. And my advice would be if you're interested, just do what's on in Bath festivals in Google and you'll get to visit Bath's webpage and they'll list it all. But... Year round it's a great destination. Jonathan Thomas (25:44) So, okay, so spreading further afield from Bath. Now, what, what, now I don't want you to have to, I don't want you to give away the, give away the milk as they say. What are some things that Americans should absolutely see and do around Bath? That, that, that they, if they come into Bath, like they should book a tour and do this with you. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (25:48) Yes. Good, great question. Firstly, one of the things I want to emphasise, and again, I think most people, probably a lot of your listeners will be aware of this, is England is not London. And if you want to go and see a bit of authentic England, you want to kind of really connect with our culture, as you already kind of alluded to, the South West is your favourite part of the Britain, it's a great place to connect into, I think we've got the most diverse number of landscapes of... fascinating attractions from different periods of history from the prehistoric all the way to the moderns and industrial all within an hour's reach of Bath. So some of the big attractions in the area, Stonehenge is about 50 minutes southeast of Bath. To our east we also have Avebury which is about 45 minutes east of Bath and those are sister sites. Most people have heard of Stonehenge but not Avebury but they are indelibly connected. They are a World Heritage... I can't think of the word now, World Heritage Traction. Yeah, Ceratart site, that's the word I'm looking for, thank you. Stonehenge actually, the stones from Stonehenge come from Avery. And Avery to me is one of the densest locations for prehistoric. Jonathan Thomas (27:01) right out of his sight. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (27:13) sites and mysteries anywhere in the UK. It's surrounded by burial mounds. We have Silbury Hill, which is the largest man -made mound in Europe. Close by, nobody quite knows who built it or for why. We have several other sites nearby. So there's a few historic attractions all over, and actually just southwest of Bath is the third biggest stone circle in the British Isles. So it's rich with prehistory. Landscapes are extraordinarily beautiful. in this part of the country. Bath is actually in the very southern part of the Cotswolds. People often think of the Cotswolds as being much further north, but the Cotswolds is a region of hills which was historically connected with the wool trade in the Middle Ages, and it stretches from Bath all the way up towards Stratford and Avon, which is a good 90 minutes, two hour drive away. And so you can access the southern Cotswolds, which is breathtakingly beautiful, and the northern Cotswolds, which is also exquisitely beautiful. A lot of the Northern Cotswolds to me is overrun. It's because it's had that visibility in the international tourist radar for so long. Visit the Northern Cotswolds in the summer and you're going to be kind of visiting London in terms of density of people in some of those villages and towns now and that's not to detract from them at all. They get that level of visitors because they are studying. But there's something is lost I think when you get to that density of visitors. Jonathan Thomas (28:20) Right. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (28:37) So the southern Cotswolds, much less well known, and again, you get off the main roads into the kind of back roads, and you are in a whole other world. And again, it's very different from America, right, because of course, and again, you'll know this, you go from one major town to a major town, and the only way to get there really is along the highway. Whilst in the UK, we have all of these ancient... roads and routes which would have once upon a time have been village tracks from one village to another all kind of connecting fields and they're all paved and tarred in the 20th century so actually getting off the main highways and into those roads is the most I think magical way of experiencing Britain but if you don't know where you're going and you don't know how to navigate those roads. And that's definitely an experience for an American driver who's not done that before. You're not gonna see that. But the Cotswolds is stunning. That's just to the north of Bath. And then to our southwest, one of the areas which to me, I think is one of the most beautiful parts of the world overall, but particularly in England, which doesn't get anywhere near the attraction of the Cotswolds, and to me, it's absolutely, it's equal, is the county of Somersets. And Somersets, Jonathan Thomas (29:22) Right. Yeah. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (29:48) Again, highly varied area, but we've got the Mendip Hills just south of Bath. Again, very significant in prehistoric terms. A lot of burial mounds there, a lot of stone circles. It's been used for over 10 ,000 years as a place of human habitation. But also some of the landscapes there, apart from these lovely rolling hills, beautiful little villages, stone villages. We have Cheddar Gorge, which is the largest gorge in Northern Europe, which is where cheddar cheese comes from. They... They used to basically mature cheddar cheese in the caves down there because they were moist, had a consistent temperature and still do actually, you can buy cheddar cheese from the Cheddar Cheese Company. You then have places like Glastonbury, which most people have heard of, less well known, but I think again for me more powerful, more magical as Wells. which is one of Britain's ancient cathedral towns. And it hasn't really changed much since the 1415 hundreds. After the Reformation, Henry VIII kind of just ignores it and it's not really had any industry since. You walk through Wells and it's like you're walking through the 1400s and the cathedral there is astonishing. And next to it is the Bishop's Palace. which looks more like a castle than a palace because bishops in the middle ages, not always particularly religious, not always particularly moral either, but also very powerful men. These were the brothers or half -brothers of kings, dukes, earls and so on who ended up being in the church and of course they wielded power and wealth just like anybody else at the top of that pyramid did in that time. And so you go into this. this palace and it's impressive and the gardens there are stunning as well so wherever you go it's stunning the other place actually sorry Jonathan I'm sure I'm probably talking too much here but the other thing that's really accessible from Bath which again I think not enough people really connect with is the Welsh border which is only 45 minutes west of Bath and it follows the Y Valley if anybody's ever watched the TV series Sex Education Jonathan Thomas (31:34) Hello? Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (31:48) it's set in that valley, beautiful steep -sided valley. In the Middle Ages, that was border country, so you've got English castles dotted along the hilltops there to keep an eye on those miscreant Welsh from coming over and raiding and so on and so forth. And it's never really been developed because again, at that time in history, the villages there were very insecure because the risk of being raided at any time. So you have ancient tiny little villages in forests with this... beautiful valley running through the middle of it, which has fields alongside it, because they were cleared by the monks of Tintin Abbey, one of England's great abbeys in the 12th to 1500s. And the ruins of that abbey are there. Again, Wordsworth, Gainsborough come and paint it and write about it in... in the late 1700s, early 1800s, which really kicks off the Romantic movement, seeing these beautiful old ruins, castles and abbeys covered in ivory and half fallen down and talking about the majesty and the natural beauty and so on, really kicks off the Romantic movement. And the Y Valley is one of those places where that really happens because in those days, you could only get up there by boat, so it was completely inaccessible. And today, you've got these stunning ruins, stunning little villages, breathtaking countryside, and most people don't... don't get to see it. And that to me again is one of my missions really. It's like we want to share not just the big stuff, not the stuff that you've heard of, but also these things which I think are absolutely extraordinary. But where you can also really engage with that history in those places without being shoulder to shoulder with hundreds of others on the coach. and have those moments of intimacy, reflection and solitude, which I think actually are so important when you're travelling and you're trying to connect with the past, with history, with where you are. It's a spiritual experience often. Jonathan Thomas (33:37) Sounds lovely. I don't need to be sold, but I'm sold again. Now, shifting from places, I want to talk about culture. So what would be some top cultural tips you have for Americans who have never been to England, who don't know anything about how anything works there? What are some things that you see create friction when Americans come over? Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (33:40) Yeah! Good question. Firstly, I have to say, I love Americans. I think you guys are such a lovely, open, warm, embracing culture that actually I see very little cultural friction. And there's this kind of stereotype, right? I mean, like the Brits have horrible stereotypes about going abroad and some of them are true. The Americans have this, there's a stereotype about Americans being very brash and loud and overbearing when they come travel. That's not my experience at all. I always feel... that Americans come over here with a sense of openness, with a sense of generosity and warmth. And so it's a very harmonious experience. And I think speaking the same language and being so closely related in terms of our history really helps. What I would say to anybody who's never traveled to the UK who might be listening to this, this is one of the things that I notice as a Brit is Americans are much, much more anxious about traveling out of America. and coming to Europe and actually for me coming to Europe for most Americans I kind of feel it's like they've got into a warm bath. They've kind of gone and relaxed and by the time they leave they're like god this is amazing and I think that's because the way I describe it is I feel us Europeans have a lower what I call level of resting anxiety okay and I'll explain what that means. Jonathan Thomas (35:10) Huh. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (35:21) I kind of feel that American culture today, American society today, there's a lot of tension, just resting tension. And I think that's because of a variety of things. I think there's a lot of pressure, I think economically going on, of course, there's a lot of challenges there with opportunity, which wasn't necessarily the case 40, 50 years ago. I think there's much more opportunity across the board. I think that's not so much there. And so there's a level of tension there. But also, The level of safety in Europe is, we're much more relaxed because our crime rates are much lower, particularly with lethal or life -changing events, so to speak. And that to me is what I call resting anxiety. You just have to have that awareness about your safety and wellbeing and you have to make decisions based on that a little bit. We just don't have that in the UK. Like... To give you an idea, I never wander outside of my door and think, could I be seriously hurt today? Could I be killed? Could I be harmed? It doesn't come into my brain. It just doesn't. For me, the chance of that happening is the same chance of an airplane engine falling out of the sky and hitting me on the head. So one of the things I notice with a lot of people traveling, particularly if they're first time travelers, is they'll say, hi Jules, and they'll drop me an email and say, hi Jules. We want to come and do a tour of Bath. Would it be possible to do a tour of Bath? And also, would you mind having a car on standby? Now, as you've been to Bath multiple times, Jonathan, you'll know that the central Bath is what? A kilometre, a mile across maybe? Pedestrianised? It's tiny. You can traverse it in half an hour from one side of the town centre to the other. Yeah, yeah, and there's nowhere to park a car. And so I'll have people say, we want to do a two hour walk and tour of Bath, but we want to have a car on standby. I'm just like... Jonathan Thomas (36:54) Yeah. Well, there's nowhere to park her car either. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (37:09) you don't need a car on standby. But there's that anxiety, like, well, what happens if something happens and we need to get out there quickly? Because of course, in American cities, often you can be in the right neighbourhood and cross a road and suddenly in the wrong neighbourhood. Just not really here for us. And so I think there's always a lot more anxiety and tension from Americans coming for the first time. Because of course, what do we always do? We relate. we project an experience we're about to have to the ones that we're familiar with. And so a lot of my time I'm just like, don't stress so much. Of course you've got to keep your wits about you. Of course you do. I mean, I'm not saying switch off to, you know, something like pickpocket you or whatever. Again, very rare, but you've got to be aware and focused on your safety, but it's so much safer. Jonathan Thomas (37:52) Well, you could say England, the reduced anxiety zone. And I know even during the dark days of the pandemic and the lockdowns, all I wanted to do was be in an English cottage in the countryside because that is the quietest, calmest place I could imagine. And I'm like, this pandemic has to end because all I want is to sit in a cottage in the countryside and just vibe as the kids say these days. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (38:18) Yes, absolutely. And actually that was my experience of it. We didn't have those same, of course there were some people that were kind of like, the whole COVID debate, is it real? Is it not? That was there on the periphery, but generally we were just like, it is what it is, let's just sit this out. And again, I'm very lucky, I live right on the edge of the Cotswolds. I live in a Cotswolds town on the edge of town. So. I was walking off into the countryside and we've got public footpaths again everywhere. We have this whole network of public footpaths which is like a lattice across the British Isles. They're all over the place. They date back from thousands of years, some of them to much more recent for others. But you can just walk. You can just get out, you can walk and you can connect with the countryside. You can walk across private land because that right to walk across that private land is enshrined in our law, in our common law. So it was, yeah, it's... exactly that, just a nice place to just chill, relax. And it just feels the stakes aren't always quite as high. It's not just as frenzied. Life is not quite as frenzied as the US. And the final thing I'll say about culture, because I could talk about this stuff all day long, Jonathan. But the other thing that I think is a huge difference, and again, I think something, and America is a very young country, of course, still, compared to somewhere like ourselves. Jonathan Thomas (39:12) Ha ha. So could I, yeah. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (39:37) But one of the things that I think really, I think makes American feel much more isolated is that your homes, your community places, for example, your shopping, they're all very disconnected. So if you want to, in most of America, if you want to go to the store, you have to get in your car and drive. And then if you want to go to the gym, you have to get in your car and drive. And so it creates a slightly dislocated sense of community. for me compared to ourselves. We live in much smaller homes and there's a big issue with that, I suppose you could say. But because our towns are historic and they're contained, we're not allowed to just develop them outwards. You can't have sprawl in the same way that you can in the US, we're more regulated than that. It means that actually I see my neighbors on a much more regular basis and if I go to the shop, I will connect with somebody in my community much more, because it's only half a mile away. And so I think we have a kind of... a stronger sense of community often. And again, we're talking in generalities here, this is not a hard and fast rule, but I kind of feel again that it's that warm bath feel again. You just feel a bit more kind of part of your immediate community or immediate communities in a way where if you're living in a big city out in the Midwest, for example, or the far West, where you might be on a big housing estate spread out. and then the shops are, the stores are, you know, two miles away and then your church is another two miles away from either those two... It's less communal, I guess. Jonathan Thomas (41:04) Yeah, I, one of the, like, I have a, I have a set thing of procedures I do when I arrive. Let's say I arrive in Shaftesbury, which is my favorite place to go. The first thing I do after I settle in a cottage is like, okay, I need provisions. So I'll walk up, I'll walk up the gold hill to the grocery store and I'll buy groceries. I'll go to the baker and get some pastries. I'll go get a cup of tea at the cafe. I'll go to the, I'll see what new shops have appeared on the high street and. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (41:18) Yes. Yeah. Jonathan Thomas (41:32) You hear the church bells ringing and like you immediately feel like you're a part of a community even though you're a foreigner there. And it's such a holistic experience because you're like, I feel like a temporary local. It's my happy place and I'm always working to get back there. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (41:49) Yeah, and I'm glad you mentioned Shaftesbury Gold Hill because again, if anybody's listening, Gold Hill has got to be one of the most beautiful streets in England. It's this beautiful cobbled street and Shaftesbury is on top of the hill. Yeah, it's absolutely stunning. But that's exactly it. That's the difference there. You just expressed it perfectly. And again, it's one of the things I noticed when I'm in the UK is I'm walking past people and we're not going to say hello to each other, even though I've got no idea who they are. We'll take dogs out and there's that little... Jonathan Thomas (41:56) Yeah, it's right here behind me. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (42:17) It sounds cliche and you do see it in the films, but it's there. There's just that kind of touch points, which I think in a society like much of the US is where people are just very much kind of in home, in car or at location. Miss those opportunities. Jonathan Thomas (42:34) Well, that's why a movie like The Holiday is so popular with Americans is because it paints a picture of this bucolic bliss that it's so easy to just fall into and become a part of. It looks nice, you know? So moving on from that, we couldn't talk about Bath and the Cotswolds without talking about Bridgerton. Bridgerton has taken America by storm. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (42:48) Yeah. Jonathan Thomas (43:00) Have you seen a lot of interest in Bridgerton from your clients and what would you recommend Bridgerton fans see or do if they want to come to Bath? Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (43:09) Absolutely and actually I mean again one of the lovely things about much of our area is it is a film set, it's an extended film set. If you've ever seen any of your Harry Potter films, Pride and Prejudice, any of the Jane Austen series, anything historical from the Georgian period, you're kind of in the Bath, Wiltshire, Somerset, Cotswolds area and so there's always filming going on around us. Bridgerton has been a huge successful bath and of course ostensibly it's set in London but about I'd say 70 % of the scenes are shot in Bath. I've just been starting to watch series 3 because my girlfriend has just come out on Netflix and she's like, yeah, we're watching it again. So I'm just having a series 3. I haven't seen series 2. So I can't talk again too authoritatively about the actual characters again because I can't remember them. But I know the main lady, and I can't remember her name, her house, the... Jonathan Thomas (43:45) Ha ha. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (44:04) where they have the kind of balls, that's Bath. When they actually have the Bath, so the outside is the Holborn Museum, as it now is, beautiful museum, that's her house. When they go for the interior shots of the balls, that's the assembly rooms in Bath. And several of the main streets in Bath are used all the time for filming. So the big place is the Abbey Square in the middle of Bath. which is this beautiful square with this lovely plane tree in the middle. And every time they go for gossip, and again, I can't remember the lady who's the main character, who's the secret author of all the scandal and slander. I should have done my research here. I just want to find his character properly. Jonathan Thomas (44:40) It's a lady whistle down. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (44:43) That's it, lazy whistle down. Every time she's going for a gossip, it's always on that square and then they just shoot it from a slightly different angle. I'm just like, there it is again. But yeah, it's huge and actually, I don't personally have that, you know, that's not my specialism. There's some great tours in Bath. In fact, even the free walking tours are amazing in Bath. They're really, really good. But yeah, if you're a Bridgerton fan, stay in Bath. Go and do a day trip down to Wilton House. If you ever see them walking in the country grounds with the river, Jonathan Thomas (44:50) Yeah. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (45:11) That's Wilton House, which is right by Salisbury, which is about an hour south from Bath. And the Wilton House itself is a stunning historic property, and the grounds, as you can tell from that show, are amazing. But yeah, there's so much. So Castle Coon, probably often the most iconic Cotswolds village is 10 minutes, 15 minutes from Bath. It's where they filmed War Horse, Dr. Doolittle, the original Rex Harrison version in the 1960s. It's been used. in Stardust, that's there, near me. I live in Corsham, a little village called Corsham, which is a town called Corsham, which is about six miles outside of Bath. And we featured heavily in Poldark. So if you remember, you watched Poldark, that was, you know, they're coming to our high street every time they turned up at the coast. And they kind of blue -screened or green -screened the whole back to make it look like tall ships and stuff. It was fascinating. But yeah, the whole area is a mecca. If you're into film, Laycock, Again, Pride and Prejudice, Harry Potter, Downton Abbey was filmed there as well. There's so much. It's hard to know where to start and what to focus on. Because yeah, there's just so much going on. Jonathan Thomas (46:13) That's the thing about Bath is that when they want to film there, they don't have to do much set dressing to make it look authentic. And they can turn up and, beautiful Georgian buildings. Exactly what we need for this shot. And what's amazing is that these places are real. We're trained to think that, these are sets. These aren't real places. But no, they're real places. And... Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (46:21) Yes. Jonathan Thomas (46:36) It's much easier for them to go to the real places than it is to build a set of these places. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (46:41) Yeah, I will share one story that you're absolutely right, Jonathan, there is one story which I find particularly funny. And that is there's a street called Pulteney Street. And I don't know if you're familiar with Pulteney Street, you cross Pulteney Bridge, which again is this beautiful Italian bridge, which is inspired by the Pontavecchio, the Rialto bridges. Anyway, along that on the other side, you have Pulteney Street, and it's this big wide open avenue of Georgian buildings on either side. And it's been used in the Dutchess, it's been used in Vanity Fair and so on. Jonathan Thomas (46:54) Yeah. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (47:07) Talking about Vanity Fair, if you look at the lampposts there, in the 1970s they put very utilitarian modern lampposts in, these kind of big L -shaped lampposts with halogen bulbs in and so on. And when they filmed Vanity Fair in the 1990s, I think it was, obviously having horrible 70s lamps didn't work. So they took them all out and put in cast iron 1700s lampposts to be appropriate to periods. And when they finished filming that film, the production company realised, well, we've got these lampposts that we put in here. They're massively heavy because they're cast iron, you know, exactly as it looked in the 1700s. They thought, we might just leave them here. So they asked Bath Council, shall we, do you mind if we just keep these here and not take them with us? And Bath Council was like, yeah, great. So those lampposts there are actually a film prop, which have remained for the last 30 years. But yeah. Jonathan Thomas (47:57) Ha ha. Ha! Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (48:03) You're right, it doesn't need much at all. And again, several of the other locations nearby, exactly the same, Laycock is a village which is medieval in nature. Most of the buildings there date back to the 1400s and 1500s. And it's been owned by the National Trust since the 1950s and they've never allowed TV aerials, telegraph poles and that kind of stuff. Again, so it's hugely popular as a film set because all you need to do is cover over the ground and the tarmac with a bit of dirt, put a prop here and there. and suddenly you've got a film set, so there's always filming going on. Jonathan Thomas (48:33) And that's where they discovered photography. So that's, yeah. Yeah. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (48:38) It is, Lake Orkaby, yeah, where the negative process was invented. So, yeah, that came to fame too. Jonathan Thomas (48:43) Yeah, I went there a few years ago. I love my visit there. All right, so we're going to wrap it up with one more question. And this one might be a challenge for you. I hope it's a challenge. Outside of Bath and the Cotswolds, where is your favorite place in England to go? Where do you go on holiday? Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (48:53) Okay. that is a good question. It's a difficult one because I love to travel. When I was a teacher as well, this is the great thing about me being a teacher, I love to travel. One of the reasons I was a teacher is I got the vacations, right? So the big vacations that summer, I'd often go overseas. In the smaller ones, I'd often go to Europe. And in the midterm breaks, I'd often travel around the UK. There are certain areas which I think are breathtakingly... Jonathan Thomas (49:05) Right. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (49:26) beautiful, extraordinary and yet again don't have the visibility that other places in the UK have now. And I'm not saying this is my favourite place, but it's one of my favourite places and this is Ludlow and the Shropshire Hills and that's an area, if you were to look at a map it's kind of between Birmingham just to the west into the Welsh, kind of moving towards the Welsh border, it's a border country again. So it's kind of like along mid Wales. Jonathan Thomas (49:38) Okay. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (49:52) And it is extraordinary. Ludlow is a medieval town. It has a castle there, which is where Henry VIII was born. The town itself still has a lot of black and white buildings, as we call them. So these black timbered buildings with white walls and, you know, Tudor windows. And it is a mecca for foodies. It's got an amazing food festival every year there. But again, just stunning. And I love places where you can have a base and then explore. nearby and the countryside, the history, the little pubs that you find in that area are absolutely to die for but most people have never heard of that area so probably I'd say that would be one of my favourite places but it is hard because I can immediately think of Lincoln in the east as well, again another area where beautiful old town, lots to see and do nearby. Jonathan Thomas (50:35) Ha ha ha. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (50:40) And again, for me, I have a love of culture, history and nature. And so anywhere that shares, and great food actually, anything that has that combination is a win for me. So there's a few. Jonathan Thomas (50:52) All right, well, thank you so much for taking the time to be on the Angletopia podcast, Jules. His company again, for if you didn't hear it is in and beyond bath and we'll put a link in the show notes. Full disclosure, he is not an advertiser. So I just, we've had some interaction with him over the years and I knew when we wanted to have guests that we wanted to have Jules on because he knows the West country. And so thank you so much for taking the time to speak to us. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (51:17) Jonathan, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for inviting me and thank you for such a lovely interview. I've really enjoyed it. Jonathan Thomas (51:22) All right, cheers, we'll have to have you on again soon. Jules Mittra (In & Beyond Bath) (51:25) We'll do, take care, we'll listen, have a great time, and next time you're down this way, drop me a line. Jonathan Thomas (51:30) I definitely will, because I'm sold.