Jonathan Welcome to the fifth Anglotopia podcast and now we are done talking about our grand adventure. If you'd like to hear all about it then you recommend going through the old podcasts. They're archived. There will be links in the show notes. And this week while we solicited ideas from our readers to see what they would like us to talk about and someone asked a great question they wanted to know if any tips for planning your first trip to London because it can be very overwhelming. And we completely agree with that. It can be very overwhelming because you're, you're planning a trip to a foreign country. And as much as it seems like Britain is like the U S it's not. And so it can be very intimidating to, to book a trip there when you have no frame of reference for anything. So our goal with this podcast is to kind of distill that down and to give you some confidence when you book your first trip to London so that you have a good time. So we should probably talk about our travel experience. Yeah we've got a lot of them. Yeah well like our overall like high level travel experiences. We started traveling to London together in to Britain in 2004. I started traveling to Britain in 2001 with my mother, and then when we met and were getting engaged, we started traveling there. Every spring break while we were in college, we did the irresponsible thing and used our student loan money to go on trips to London. And I consider that seed money in Angletopia because all the experiences we got from that helped us found Angletopia. Jackie Thank you, U.S. government. Jonathan Thank you, U.S. government, for those cheap loans that we're still paying off. Jackie Yeah. Oh, boy. Jonathan So since then, though, I've been to Britain 18 times in the last 15 years. I believe you are 13 or 14 times. Because there were a couple times where I had to go without her for various reasons, usually involving a little baby. How dare they schedule a royal wedding three weeks after you were supposed to give birth? Jonathan How dare they? Jonathan Didn't they consult us? So we've spent months cumulatively traveling in Britain over the last 15 years. Jackie And really over different times of the year as well. So we've been very lucky that we've been able to be over in just about every season now. Jonathan Yeah, we've been there every season. Almost every month. really yeah yeah um so it's so we like to know we like to think we know what we're talking about Jackie well i think it's impossible to to know everything there ever is to know about london but we could at least share some of our experiences some of the things that have been great successes for us and we've had a really good time and then other things that have really been pitfalls yeah we've had lots Jonathan of terrible experiences and lots of wonderful experiences and and that's that's the thing with this advice this is advice from us based on our travel so someone else might say completely different things and it's with travel it's very opinion based agreed and i think that it depends Jackie on your level of adventure and activity and how you want to travel like we have a massive amount a respect for those who choose to backpack. You know, that is like a, like my sister, like she loves to stay in hostels, thinks it is an amazing experience. You get to meet people from around the world and she's right. It is, but I, I like room to myself and I, um, I'm very lucky to be married to my travel partner. So, um, keep in mind, we're sharing experiences in the way that we like to travel and granted that's changed over the years um when we were in college um you know using that college money we were to say we were on a shoestring budget is really something we were once on a trip where we were so broke our last night we literally only had coins in our pockets like this sounds like poor us like you're in britain but you know um that's a scary proposition to be like there with so we went we went and found a green grocer and like we bought a couple apples and we you know we had fruits and veggies for dinner that night because it was super cheap to do and so but we want to give tips so that that doesn't happen yeah so we've we've traveled every Jonathan type of travel yes um not every but most most i mean we've done the budget we've done just the run of the mill and we've also done the higher end mostly thanks to times that we were there was one time we won a contest and so we like stayed in the hilton park plaza that was like probably Jackie was it park lane hilton the park lane hilton in london gorgeous for free that was great Jonathan thank you british airways thank you british airways but like that was probably the nicest hotel we stayed in i don't know i it's different and it's nice but it's different i like you ask Jackie any day of the week and I'm going to tell you Hazlitz. Sorry. Jonathan We'll talk about that a little bit. Jackie So why don't we kick off on like where to start? So let's say you've decided to go. Jonathan Okay. Yeah. Let's say you've decided to go to Britain. And if it's your first trip, British people are going to hate me telling you this. And they're going to vehemently disagree because British people want, they know how wonderful their country is. So they want you to see every part of it. And that's just not possible when you're an American tourist coming over for a short visit. Jackie Or if you don't really have a lot of experience traveling. Jonathan Because if you're not willing to drive, that really limits you what you're going to do. And so we kind of recommend that if it's your first trip, you should stick to London. Jackie Central London. Jonathan And I can hear British people, our British listeners, screaming in agony. Jonathan We understand. Jackie We do. Like, there is so much more to England than London. Jonathan But London is a great introduction to Britain. Jackie Yes. It's a very international city. It's a very international city, but it's also a very British city. Jonathan And it gets you used to Britain. Jonathan Yeah. Jonathan And it lets you get your bearings, your British bearings. You learn how they kind of do things. You learn how to communicate with people there. Jonathan Culture, customs. Culture and customs. Jonathan Because there's more to see and do in London in a lifetime than you could possibly ever do. So we recommend sticking to London for your first trip and then maybe doing a day trip or two to know how adventurous you're feeling. And we'll talk about that in a minute. But we think that if it's your first trip, keep it simple. Jonathan Yeah. Jonathan Just do London. Jonathan You will not be bored. Jonathan You will not be bored. And more than likely, this will not be the last time you're there. And you're going to want to go again and again because going to Britain is like a drug that you want to keep partaking in. It's great. You're going to want to go back. We like to say when we have post-trip depression, what's the first thing we do when we get off the airplane when we get home? We start planning the next trip. So don't feel bad if you want to keep it simple and stay in London because there's so many more opportunities in the future for you to do this. So yeah, London first. Jackie Even that being said, even if you don't get the chance to come back, London is a world-class city. I mean, with New York and Tokyo and Paris, there is so much to do in London. We've been more than a dozen times, almost two dozen times or more between the two of us. And we still find new things to do all the time in London. Jonathan I have not done a quarter of my London bucket list. Jackie So, I mean, that just shows how much there's... Jonathan There's so much I haven't done. Jonathan And there's stuff that we did 15 years ago that we need to redo. Like, I have been to Westminster Abbey in 15 years. And they've got a whole new museum. And they, like, I need to go. Jonathan It's a beautiful place. Yeah, it's a wonderful place. Jonathan So, like, there's just, there will always be something you didn't get a chance to do. So. Jonathan There's a reason to go back. Jonathan There's a, gives you a reason to go back. So, I guess the first thing to talk about is when to go to London. What time of year. Jackie and um the easy answer is any time of year is the time to go to london no i'm sorry i respectfully Jonathan disagree well we'll give both of our hot takes and then you can pick um so i really like what Jackie they what are known as the bumper bumper months sorry um so summer is high season and yes it is beautiful in the summer but everybody knows across the world that london is beautiful in the summer so they want to be there and it's close quarters a lot of things are not air conditioned it's hot it does get very hot we had an experience traveling where I was newly pregnant and we were staying in a beautiful flat that didn't have air and for yes and for you know I swore while I was pregnant with our children I ran 10 degrees warmer the entire time and I was miserable so I like I said I love the fall if you can go in the fall like November is gorgeous it's not too cold yet you know it's in the 50s and the 60s it might be a little rainy but that's what you expect out of London you know and foggy and it's it's gorgeous and the colors are great but if you can't do the fall early spring is really nice I've been there most in early spring like late February through March is same kind of weather, kind of mid-50s, 60s. Not as much rain, but you'll still get some rain. So that's my choices. Don't go May, June, July, or August. I wouldn't do it. But that's my opinion. Jonathan I kind of pretty much agree with you. Jackie Oh, hey, how about that? Jonathan London in the summer is beautiful, but like we said, it's hot Jonathan it's crowded that's when all the other tourists are there from around the world around the world Jonathan and some tourists are more annoying than others and it could be a real frustrating travel experience when it's crowded and hot and the London Underground gets really hot in the summer and it's actually a real legitimate problem um because the London's clay holds in the heat um more so than you know you would think oh it's underground it would be cool well it's not because of the geology of London's clay it holds in the heat so it gets really sweltering hot in the tube like they hand out bottles of water they have fans going but they just it's you're literally Jackie packing thousands of people I do you know a system the Victorian infrastructure so it's hot Jonathan it's crowded and it's expensive and don't get me wrong we've been in there in the summer we've had a perfectly good time but if you want to have the best time i'd say avoid the summer unless you're going to do the things that only take place in summer like wimbledon and um the things in the Jackie summer season and i would say um yes bucket list right there so um i'll just like roll up on george and amal's back lawn and be like hey but like i do not really know the cloonies um so i'm with her Jonathan on the bumper seasons we've done most of our London travel and between January and April and you know they say oh the weather's so dreary and London in the winter and early spring well yeah it can be but it's no drearier than than Seattle or the Midwest and well and the Britain has a maritime climate so they're they're and they're warmed by the Gulf Stream coming up from from the Gulf of Mexico so their winters are much more mild than yes than our favorite is the Midwest so you know you don't even need a heavy coat in the winter and spring months there you might get wet you probably will probably will get wet bring a travel umbrella that's Jackie like a level up expert tip bring a travel umbrella I think we went last year right after Christmas Jonathan it was sunny every day like we didn't rain at all like we had a great time it was cold though it was Jackie cold but like by proper chicago standards cold now like it wasn't like below zero or anything Jonathan like that but i needed a a full coat so uh london in the autumn is beautiful hyde park and st james park and all the parks are stunning yes and because of that gulf stream warming their their Jackie autumn lasts longer it lasts well into december it's so beautiful so like you can go you can go Jonathan like if you went for thanksgiving weekend like it would still feel like autumn there and it wouldn't Jackie be that cold um in fact that is my one of my most favorite times of year to go we once did a thanksgiving weekend yeah um there and it you know i thanksgiving is my most favorite holiday but i Jonathan had so much fun i didn't miss it that year but that's also it's also a very popular time for americans to go because they get the holiday off so true you'll find more of your fellow countrymen at that time of year true so i think we've covered when to go yeah so avoid high season may through august if you if budget is your goal bumper season or the winter except for the yeah Jackie well and we didn't say that either is that bumper season is way less expensive you'll and you'll Jonathan spend half as much on airfare in january as you will in june yeah sometimes even more and if you're using airline miles it's much easier to get a a rewards booking in the off season than it is in the summer absolutely so we've covered that so the question next is how long do you go well the the the treaty between the u.s and the uk allows americans to visit britain for up to Six months at a time. Jackie Before you got to go home. Jonathan Before you got to go home. Jackie And go home. Jonathan However, if you show up at immigration, say you're coming for six months, expect to see The Room with the Purple Chairs and get lots of extra questions. Jackie You should probably explain what The Room with the Purple Chairs is. Jonathan One of our favorite shows is UK Border Force. Jackie Yeah, we're those people. I hate to. It's like our guilty pleasure. Jonathan Yeah, where they like profile the Border Force and fly on the wall. And whenever someone has a problem, they go in the room with the purple chairs. Jackie Yeah. So, like, if you show up to be in Britain for six months, you better have a means to support yourself. You're not allowed to work. Jonathan You better bring your bank statements with you and your return ticket. Jackie Yeah, no joke. They will want to see that. Jonathan And if you don't have it, they're going to send you on the next flight back. Jackie The last time we came through the U.K. border at the airport, like, there was a college student with her parents. But she didn't, like, have – an American college student. But she didn't have all of her proper documentation. And they were just doing their job at the border. So well done them. But they were grilling her. Like she had to get documentation out and like they were just doing their job. But like, so don't really plan to go for six months unless you like that. Jonathan It takes a lot of planning. Even when we went for five weeks in 2012 or 2013, they. Jonathan Yeah, we got a lot of questions. They asked some questions. Jonathan And then when I went, even when I went last summer to the to the writers. No, I went two years ago to Oxford for the study abroad program. It was just for a week, but they had to see the letter from the university. They had to see my return ticket. They like to tick every box. Jackie But I want to say, though, that please don't let this intimidate you in any way. If you were going just on a vacation for a week or two, you're going to be fine. I mean, just abide by their laws. You're fine. Jonathan So we've done London in all different lengths of time. You can do a long weekend, but that's not enough. Jonathan No. Jonathan It's not like if you left on a Thursday and came home on a Monday or Tuesday. It's just not enough unless your purpose is to go for one or two specific things. Jackie And I think that, let's be honest, there is some serious jet lag if you're flying from the continental U.S. Jonathan Yeah, it's going to take you a day or two to adjust. And most of the flights arrive from the U.S. in the early morning, and you're already jet lagged, and you have to wait around for your hotel. So you lose the whole first day. Jackie Well, you can if you don't know how to plan for it. Jonathan If you don't sleep on the flight, that's a whole other conversation. Jackie Yeah. Jonathan So I would say the minimum you should go is a week. Jackie Yeah, seven full days. Seven full days. Jonathan I would say ideally go for ten days. Jackie Really? your first time i think a week is is enough for your first time because it is such an immersive experience and it is i mean although we speak the same language we don't it it it is do not expect to go and and and it be like america you know the prequel because it's not it's a completely different culture um and i found the first couple of trips that i went i was almost like culture Jonathan fatigue yeah i remember you being in tears at the airport like i'm just ready to go i'm done i can't Jackie and and i love to travel and and now i've i've kind of learned the ins and outs of british culture Jonathan and there are definitely cultural nuances let's agree to disagree and say seven to ten days Jackie seven to ten days i can live with that seven days because if you go for 10 days you can do some day trips outside of london by train you can but okay we're we're we're looking at somebody's first trip Jonathan okay so if you go for a week that gives you plenty of time to adjust to the time difference and it gives you plenty of time to do things and and because you'll be there during the week and and if you go take our advice and go in the bumper season like if you go during the mid in the week in the middle of the day to all these attractions you're not gonna have to wait in line the museums will be pretty much empty except for the occasional school group like it's great really important Jackie because even as expert travelers this caught us off guard just a year ago do not go on half term Jonathan to london we'll put in the show notes a link to the half term schedule for the next couple years because it's a public thing yeah half term for let's try to explain what that is exactly uh half Jonathan term is a british school year is divided into three terms semesters semesters you would we Jonathan would call them semesters um uh fall spring and then the summer like they only have a six week summer vacation whereas here it's like 12 but um so but in the middle of the term there in between Jackie terms no no oh i'm sorry i'm half term duh yeah sorry it's been a long day at points in the school Jonathan year yeah at several points at the school year there the kids will be off of school for a week Jackie it's like nationally or like regionally and yeah well it's england scotland and wales will have Jonathan their own schedules but and so when that happens um it's why that's a big deal is because in britain it is illegal to take your kids out of school for anything you well you have to have a very serious reason like someone had to die and even then there have been people who like who couldn't take their kids out of school for a funeral like they would get you get fined you like have to go in front of the judge like it's a big deal to take your kids out of school and there's talk of that of that uh of that being relaxed but our point is our point is is that because of that that's the only time that families can go places and go on vacation or go have days out is on half term so Jackie what happens is the whole country descends on london the whole kids well the whole country Jonathan descends on london the stately homes the castles the amusement parks that's like that's like that's when britain goes to play yeah and i think when we went uh a couple years ago we went we wanted to go to the natural history museum because we hadn't been there yet oh we still haven't been there no Jackie we still haven't been there see there's always stuff to do in london spoiler you're worthy of Jonathan the story oh so we went to go to the natural history museum and the line to get in because it was half term was literally around the block and around the building it's a big building it's a massive building and it merged into the line for the science museum a whole different museum so Jackie yeah i mean what do you think there had to been like 5 000 people in line i'm not kidding like it doesn't help that museums are free which is great travel tip yeah travel does all the museum Jonathan most of the museums are free which is great which is awesome as a tourist because you don't have to pay to get in but as a consequence on half term everybody goes to the free museum so moral of the Jackie story check the half term calendar before you book yes so we'll put a link in a show notes to the Jonathan half to the current half term calendar um so that should that's an addendum to the when to go section don't go during half term um so a week gives you plenty of time to to our our philosophy travel philosophy is we like to inhabit the places we go you know we like to get the rhythm of it we like Jackie to buy the newspaper we like to kind of live like temporary locals you know find a cafe find a cafe Jonathan and and if you only go for a few days you're gonna it's just gonna be go go go go go go go go go to cram everything in and we prefer a more um what's the word i'm looking for a more well-rounded travel experience of that yeah because we've we've found over the years that the best memories Jonathan have are the things we didn't plan for for sure and the things that we you know the surprises along Jonathan the way so i mean it's one we we it's one thing to tick boxes off your tourism to-do list but Jackie you know it's be open be spontaneous there's about more than that for us because we just Jonathan because we love it there and want to have it there and you know we can't live there so when we're there it's our chance to live there so we try to be posers about it and try to live there so um as for what to do in that week um i would say and you i don't know you might have a different opinion on this but because we're old we've gotten a lot older than we were when we were 20 years old doing this i would say plan one big thing in the morning one big thing in the afternoon plan a nice lunch somewhere and kind of leave it at that and maybe do something in the evenings like a show or a concert you don't want to you can certainly do more than that because london's compact and you can ride the tube everywhere but you don't want to overdo it and if you don't have leisurely time and in there you're not going to have you're just going to be going from place to place to place you're not really going to be seeing london especially if you ride the tube everywhere because you're just you're just going to see tunnels well um in a lot of ways i i agree Jackie with that. I don't, I don't disagree with that. Um, but I think back to, you know, when we were in our twenties, how we traveled, I mean, we would literally get off the plane and we did not stop till we got back on the plane. And a lot of times when we, um, go for business, it's the same way. And it is, I feel like we lose out sometimes on some of the fun things we have. Um, but, um, Yeah, just don't pack your days in too tight and leave room for spontaneity. What I would recommend is if you've got, decide how many days you're going and then buy yourself a really good map of London or a really good guidebook of London and choose to do things that are geographically close to each other. Jonathan London's very walkable. Jackie It is, but it's also a big city. so you know maybe you could do like you know the museums all near each other or all near each other so maybe like two museums yeah a good example of that is because London's very spread out Jonathan yeah it is you know you know the west end is kind of the center of London but and there's a lot there but if you want to go to the V&A museum that's in South Kensington yeah you don't want to be zigzagging spend your day whole day that's a long way away so if you're gonna like do if you want to do that plan a whole day in south kensington and do this or or like a neighborhood next to Jackie south kensington like like i said get a good map and and and flag the touristy spots that you want Jonathan to see like if you let's say you wanted to have a south kensington day you know which you could do easily you could do the vna you could do the natural history museum you could do the science museum they're all right next to each other harris is right down the street hyde park is just just a few streets away so the kensington palace obviously but that's that's a bit of a walk so it's kind of it's all linked to my favorite london map in the show notes but it's important to have a good london map that has all the things to do on it because that way you can see where things are um it's one thing to to know the tube stop for a place but with no geographical frame of reference like you're not going to know where that is or how to get there and you don't want to as much as I love the tube you don't want to spend all day tubing back and forth everywhere so our general stance is we'll tube to a place and then walk to the places we want to go Jackie and then tube back or take a taxi can I say that's changed though yeah that's changed as we Jonathan you know when we were young and poor we would take we're still poor well we're still poor Jackie but our our level of adventure our threshold to be kind of packed into a shared space has just Like, it's, there's something for both of us with getting a little older that, like, do not cram me in like a sardine. Like, I can't handle it. So, which is another London tip. Like, try and stay off the tube during rush hour. You will thank you. Londoners will thank you. I have never seen people cram on to a. Jonathan Before 9 a.m. or between 4 and 6 p.m. Jackie Yeah. Jonathan Just do something else. You don't want to get on there. Jackie But I've never seen people cram in. I mean, people literally shove in to get in. And they are determined to either get to work or get home. Jonathan And for a lot of people doing that, the tube is the last part of their commute. They've been on a train for an hour or two and then have to get on the tube. So Londoners who are going to work are just not interested in dealing with tourist BS. They're just not. They're trying to get to work and get on with their lives. Jackie That's a dollar in the Anglotopia swear jar. i didn't swear i used the euphemism yeah that's still a dollar sorry for those who that might Jonathan have offended anyway i'm sorry this video is gonna get demonetized by youtube now oh don't start so okay so yeah you want to get you want to get a good map and get your geographical bearings so you can know what's where because no one is going to help you there Jackie I think that there is a way to approach people. Just be polite. Jonathan There are people who work in London who are designed to help tourists. Like, if you're scared, ask a policeman. They will gladly help you where you want to go. Taxi drivers are hit or miss. Jonathan Sometimes they're very friendly and will talk your ear off Jonathan or give you a dissertation on the history of London. Sometimes they'll drive off before letting you in because they couldn't understand where you asked to go. Jackie So, I mean, it's a little else. Okay. You just packed a ton there, so let's unpack some of that. Okay. Londoners, for the most part, are friendly. As friendly as you would find any population in a big city. We come from Chicago, which is a Midwestern city. It's a very friendly city. Londoners are slightly less friendlier than Chicagoans. Maybe. I think it's all about your approach. just be polite be patient be kind that kind of thing now london taxi drivers here's the thing um they are amazing hard-working people i have never had a london taxi cab driver drive off on me ever i've had it happen twice well i don't even know what one time i was in a suit i don't even know how to respond to that so i'm just it happens i'm just gonna leave that alone and if you talked Jonathan about cabbies i mean it if you're cabbie's having a bad day you're gonna have a bad ride but it's we love taxis yeah they're great and they're the best that's the primary way we get around london now is we is we take taxis yeah um they're expensive but they're worth every penny because we and we're kind of getting ahead of ourselves we all we're getting ahead of ourselves a little bit but um uber drivers and the ride sharing drivers they're they don't go through nearly as much training as london black taxi drivers do it takes a london taxi driver three years to learn the knowledge which is what they call where they have to learn every possible route i believe it's Jackie it's either eight miles or six miles square radius around charing cross station it's eight it's Jonathan amazing yeah they can instantly tell you how to get anywhere in london just by if you give them a Jackie And if you're a tourist, you can stop by an information desk at any of the sites. They can help you. Don't be afraid to ask people and don't be afraid to talk to people. People want you to enjoy London. Jonathan Yeah. So you want to orient yourself. There's a couple great apps that I'll link to, none of which we've done yet, but we'll get there eventually. Jackie I know we're kind of out of order here, but since we're talking about ride sharing, do we want to talk about ride sharing? Because I think that's important. Jonathan Yeah, our stance on using apps like Uber is not to use them. Granted, we've used them mostly from a research perspective. Jackie We've done Lyft as well? Jonathan No, Lyft isn't in London. Jackie Sorry, is it Git that we've done? Jonathan That's a black taxi app. Jackie Oh, okay. Uber is the only one. Oh, okay, I'm sorry. Jonathan only one right now and then there's minicabs and then there's um do not take a minicab well no no that's that's bad advice you only take a minicab if you've pre-booked it and that that's what a Jackie lot of the apps do now is they pre-book it get a licensed black taxi cab so but i have had some of the scariest moments in all of my travels in an uber in london and i'm not knocking uber but it is a cheap way to get around but like don't just don't do it yeah i mean one time we Jonathan we need to get to greenwich quickly or no to rotherhithe quickly and from soho which is a long that is a massively long ride and it's gonna take 40 minutes and we're like we didn't want to take the tube so like let's just take uber so we took uber yeah because the cab bill was gonna be Jackie It was going to be like 75 pounds in taxis. Jonathan It was ridiculous. I don't even remember. Jackie Yeah, it was outrageous. Jonathan And so we're like, we've got to Uber it because we've got to do this thing. And we've got to get there. We don't have time to take the tube and the LR. So we Ubered it. Well, we regretted it because the guy was Iranian and we got an earful on U.S. foreign policy. Jackie Which he had a right. Jonathan Circa. Well, no, he doesn't have a right to do it to his passengers. Jackie Well, I get that he wanted to speak to us as Americans. And I sympathize with what he had to say. But I think that's not the scariest Uber. Jonathan I'm not my government or what my country does. So really don't bring me into it. I'm here to travel. I left America. Leave me alone. Jackie Well, we literally were in an Uber once. And I'll make this super short because I know you don't want to talk about Uber. But we were in an Uber once in London, like central London. And we were in the back. And the guy rolled down the window, like, as somebody, it looked like we were going to get, like, mugged or carjacked. And, like, he rolled down the window. And, like, it completely freaked me out. And then, like. Jonathan People were doing drugs in the street. Jackie Like, we were in a really rough part of town. And then. Jonathan And he, like, ran somebody off the road. Jackie Yeah. Jonathan Like. Jackie We literally got out of the Uber. And I, like, we walked back into Hazlitt's. And I was like, where is the bar? Like. And I told John then and there, I will never take an Uber again in London ever. Now, that's not to say, I'm sure there are excellent Uber drivers in London, but it's just not for me. Jonathan So, we, so if you want a taxi, hail one or get, there's two apps you can use. So, you don't have to use Uber. One is called Get, G-E-T-T, which we'll link to these in the show notes. Get Taxi is, was put together by a consortium of taxi drivers. So you can get a black taxi. There's also an app called My Taxi, which does the same thing. And all the drivers will either take one or the other, and you can easily pay for your drive with it. You can book it. They'll show up. It works just like Uber. You're paying for the expertise of the black taxi drivers. So we recommend those. If you need to go a little further afield, but you don't want to pay for a black taxi driver, um i recommend using the addison lee app um that's usually what we use to like book our trip to the airport because it's cheaper than a taxi would be so addison lee is um it's like a Jackie chauffeured car it's like a chauffeured car but it's that sounds very fancy it sounds fancy but Jonathan it's not and and i mean we've always had a fine experience with addison lee they always turn up on time but the drivers never talk to you and i can't figure out if that's by design or it must Jackie be at this point or they just don't want to talk to you or they think we're jerks yeah which i would hope not we try and be kind passengers but before you book addison lee always look for a coupon because you can always get a coupon um and you have to link in the show notes notes where where Jonathan some coupon hunting spots for that would be just google addison lee coupon okay so we kind of got off track there but plane tickets booking a plane ticket um there are plenty of aggregators that can you can search all the airlines and everything that's good for research i recommend always booking directly with the airline because that you'll get the lowest airfare then they say book on a tuesday or a wednesday because that's when airfares are refreshed at the airlines if you book bumper season midweek you should be fine i mean we just posted earlier this week british jerry's is having a sale they were i don't want to say they were practically giving Jackie away round trip airfare to the uk right now i mean it was like 569 i think that's the round Jonathan probably cheapest i've ever seen it since we started traveling yeah yeah it was cheaper back in the early 2000s but um i mean five six it was 569 round trip from new york it included five nights at one of the worst hotels in london but the don't name him the airfare was so low that like you could just book the book the vacation and stay somewhere else i mean it was so cheap Jackie yeah and we we the reason i i say you know don't name the hotel is we've done a similar deal um and stayed at said hotel and it was by far one of our worst london hotel experiences Jonathan yeah i guess we can segue into hotels i mean it's pretty easy to find a cheap plane ticket Jackie Side note, too, about plane tickets. So, in a lot of ways, you pay for what you get. Jonathan Yeah. Jackie That being said, if you are able to push the boat out a little bit and buy a seat in a higher cabin, if you can go business, our best flying experiences have been business because you can sleep. Jonathan Unless you can't afford it, though. Jackie Well, and let's be honest. Jonathan And we have free upgrades. Jackie Yeah, so British Airways has always been really, really generous to us. And British Airways didn't pay for us to say any of this, but we've just had really, really good experiences with British Airways. You flew American once, but I think you went north, didn't you? Jonathan Yeah, to Manchester. And it was fine. Jackie Yeah, you had a decent experience. Jonathan Yeah. British Airways is not a sponsor of this podcast or our website. I have a, we have a relationship with them. Yes. Um, it's mostly PR based cause like they'll invite us to events and stuff, but so they're not like paying us to talk about them, but other than the one trip I took to Manchester where I flew American, which I still booked through BA cause they're in a code share. Um, we've always flown BA and that's kind of the way we like to roll. It's BA is not the cheapest no usually and but we know what to expect you get a truly british experience from Jackie when you step on the plane exactly when you step on the plane you've stepped into britain yes and Jonathan that's when you're seeking a british experience that's what you want and we've always had Jonathan good flights with them we've had terrible flights and good flights and but their customer service has always been fantastic customer service they're very responsive on twitter um they're very not Jonathan they're very kind to us like we say we always you know tweet them on twitter and they you know Jackie they'll respond to us and say have a good yeah or like we've asked about like we came home one year um as o'hare was getting a massive blizzard and just i tweeted them before we left because we were down in dorset before and it's a bit of a trek to london back to heathrow before we kind of set on our journey and going you know hey is this flight actually going to happen tonight like not in a bad way just like are we going tonight are we not going tonight and they were uber responsive and they were like yep show on up we're we're heading out in a couple of hours we're like okay Jonathan we gotta get in the car yeah it's depending on where you are in the u.s you're gonna have to fly different airline i mean british airways flies to most of the major cities and they've started in recent years flying to the second tier cities the smaller cities like they just launched um nashville they're launching charlotte this year i believe north carolina so i mean you can fly direct from ba from most of the major hubs but you know like if you live in atlanta a lot of people like to fly delta i've never flown delta transatlantically so we can't say whether they're Jackie good or not we'll just say and we'll move on because i don't want to talk about this the whole time um british airways is our preferred airline to fly when we go um just based on experience Jonathan yeah and like like she said you get what you pay for if there are plenty of budget transatlantic airlines now like norwegian and wow but you literally get what you pay for in some cases Jonathan it's just a seat and you don't even you have to pay for the carry-on like it's to pay for food Jonathan and you have to pay for the food and for a lot of people that's fine but that's not the way we like to travel anymore and if i would do it in a pinch if i needed to get to britain right away and it was the best way i could get i would do it i'm not snobby about it but when i'm gonna spend a couple thousand dollars to get us there for a business trip i'm gonna i'm gonna stick with what i know which is British Airways. And, you know, but like I said, I've flown American transatlantically. It's fine, especially on their newer planes. You know, I think United flies to Edinburgh, which we might try soon because we'd like to go direct to Scotland. Jonathan Yeah. Jonathan But we've never flown United transatlantically. Jonathan So we're going to move on, though, to hotels. Jonathan So choosing a hotel is the most important choice. Jonathan It really is. You have to make because that will gauge how much you enjoy your trip. Jonathan And when we first started traveling, it was a lot of what's the cheapest hotel we can get. But the problem with that is that there are a lot of crappy hotels in London. Jackie Scary. You say crappy. I say scary. Terrifying. Run. No, not really. Jonathan And this is where TripAdvisor is your friend. Jackie Yes. Jonathan And we have a list on our site of recommended hotels, which we'll link to in the show notes. That's kind of our, we have recommendations for different budget tiers. But generally, we would suggest stick to the major hotel chains. Jackie Yes. Jonathan But not the domestic British ones. Like stick with a Marriott, a Hilton, Holiday Inn, you know. Like stick to what's familiar hotel wise. it's really tempting to to see a hotel with a real fancy sounding british name and think oh Jackie that sounds very or a georgian a georgian front it looks gorgeous on the outside but there's you Jonathan know like there's a lot of hotels in south kensington and south kensington's beautiful with its with its regency and georgian buildings and long white facades that look beautiful but what you learn when you book one of those hotels is that when you go past the door yeah it's awful it's terrifying it's terrifying so it's it's tempting to find the cheapest hotel Jackie you can but just don't do that trip advisor will be your best advisor and sort by ratings and look Jonathan at the traveler photos because you know that's how you stay out of places that have bed bugs keeping Jackie in mind too that you know those who have a negative experience always scream the loudest yeah but i still legitimately um bed bugs are like a real thing again like where they weren't and now they are i search before i stay anywhere in the world i'll do a quick search on the hotel and search for bed bugs because you do not want to bring those home well what's baffling about a lot Jonathan of these hotels is a lot of these areas where these crappy hotels are are really nice areas and yet they still have really crappy hotels in them i'm sorry i'm using the word crappy so much Jackie but i am just i am like ringing up the next trip fund right here with the with the swear jar it's Jonathan just you've you've got to pick a decent hotel and it's really it will ruin your experience trip i My poor mother, she stayed in a budget hotel that looked nice and sounded nice on paper, but when she got there, had the worst experience. Jackie Beyond. I mean, she was in... Jonathan I think it was so awful for her. I don't think she's been back since. Jackie Yeah, she was in tears. I mean, it was really bad. Jonathan So, like I said, we have a recommended list. I'm not going to go through them all here because we ran out of time. But stick to a major hotel brand. Jackie Do your homework. you can't go wrong with a marriott i mean just do your homework do a lot of research on your hotel Jonathan it's very tempting just to the hotels get cheaper the further and further out you get from central Jonathan london yeah oh super important it's tempting to stay in one of those neighborhoods and just ride Jonathan the tube in when you want to go places but we highly recommend you don't do that because the worst hotels are on the outskirts of london and and there's a lot of really bad neighborhoods in Jonathan and the outskirts of London. Jonathan You don't want to be afraid walking back to your hotel at night. Jackie But not only that, I think if you approach London like any other major international city, Jonathan like London is relatively safe. Jackie You just have to be aware of your surroundings and that kind of thing. But what I wanted to say about booking something a little further out, while you might think that you'll save some money booking a little further out um and outside of central london you are going to spend so much time commuting back and forth that it's really and it's expensive you are going to ruin your trip Jonathan yeah i mean if you are out in zone three or four you're going to be paying a lot on the just on Jonathan the tube to get yeah don't do it stay central are even slower so stay central there are plenty of Jonathan decent hotels centrally located and plenty of neighborhoods to to to get a london you feel from don't i mean granted there are nicer areas of london in the outskirts like wimbledon's a wonderful place to stay windsor while not it's not in london is a good place to stay but again you'll spend a Jackie lot of time on the train getting there but if you're gonna spend a your time in central london would you really recommend staying all the way out in windsor no i only recommend exactly if Jonathan you're going to do like that part of england and want to pop into london once or twice right so Jackie that that speaks to my point if you are there to experience london stay in london stay in central Jonathan london central london so again um yeah just do your hotel research there are plenty of options but discount anything three stars or below yeah i agree with this and even like four star hotels you're going to find like really if this is a four-star hotel like you know it's you know there's the standards are different standards are different and a lot of these hotels are in old buildings they haven't been renovated in a long time um and because they're chasing the budget market there's not a lot of money spent on the facilities you know it's look if you want to go as cheap as possible you can do it you can do it but you have to weigh what that experience is going to be exactly i mean you could stay we used to stay in the easy hotel yeah when we were in college we were in college the easy hotel it's a it's not really well known here but the easy jet is a budget airline they also have a line a place of hotels and you can book a room for it used to Jonathan be like 25 pounds a night if you booked far enough in advance which is insane insane in central Jonathan london it's not even it's not far from the marriott we've stayed in in south kensington yeah you know in our state there was fine but you know it's basic it's like a platform bed yeah with a mattress Jackie and a blanket and pillows and then like the bathroom is basically a wet room so it's functional you have to pay for a tv remote well you used to but like um i just want to throw a quick caveat in here when talking about london hotels and just travel back and forth to london um choose your wisely we talked a little bit about this on the podcast um room sizes in london um are different than you will find it here in the states maybe with the exception in new york but they are tiny so do not do yourself a favor and i speak from experience i cannot tell you how many times i have regretted bringing massive luggage bring small luggage like be disciplined in your packing be focused in your packing, your luggage is going to have to go somewhere in the room. And usually, depending on your budget, if you're going way down market, like Easy Hotel, there's not a closet. We stayed in an Easy Hotel one year when we were in college, and we literally had nowhere for our suitcases. So we literally just kind of laid them down and had to walk over them. So like, it was like the door, a doorway to the bathroom. And then the bed was like right there. So we literally had to climb over our suitcases. Jonathan The sizes of the rooms are dictated by the age of the buildings. And yeah, a lot, like I said, a lot of them haven't been renovated and they chase the budget market. Jonathan So the rooms are small. Jackie Do your homework. Jonathan Even in the big, nicer hotels, the rooms are small. Jackie Yeah. The Marriott, the rooms are small. Jonathan The rooms that have. Jackie Small by American standards. Jonathan Yeah. I mean, think of your average holiday inn room. it's like half that size is the average room in London. Jackie But that's a good-sized room for there. Jonathan And that's a good-sized room for London. Like Hazlitt's, even Hazlitt's, which is an expensive hotel, and we love it, but their rooms are not that big. Jonathan It depends on how... Jonathan Well, they have bigger rooms, but we've only... Jackie I disagree. Jonathan So, yeah, we try to travel now with just carry-ons because it's the easiest way to go about things. So I think we've covered hotels. Jackie Yeah. we've done getting around London too Jonathan yeah there's like day trips outside of London Jackie I really like we had a debate Jonathan we disagree on this Jackie yeah I think if you're going your first time just stick to London there's more than enough to do the museums are free there's great art walk the streets of London I mean, just get out and experience London. I think that's more than enough. Jonathan But, sometimes there are things people have on their bucket list that they really want to do, and it might be their only chance to go. If you want to go somewhere outside of London, it's easy to do without a rental car, because there are trains that go everywhere. If you're a literary nut and you want to go to Oxford, it's an hour by train from Paddington Station. Jackie and that's an easy journey Jonathan you hop on the train in Paddington you're in Oxford in an hour Central Oxford is within walking distance to the train station it's practically a London suburb it's so close you can spend a fantastic day in Oxford again Oxford's like London though it becomes a drug you want to go back constantly Jackie I agree with you there Jonathan and you can get your Tolkien and your Lewis stuff in and your Inspector Moore stuff and do a nice walking tour. And it's a nice change of pace from London because Oxford is much more sedate. Jonathan Yes, I agree with you there as well. It's a company town. Jonathan It's a university town. Jonathan Yeah. Jonathan If you, where else am I thinking? Jonathan Windsor. Jonathan Windsor is half an hour by train, sometimes even less to go see Windsor Castle. And Windsor is a nice town. That's an easy thing to do. That's also from Paddington as well. You can also get to Windsor from Waterloo Station. um plenty to see in windsor night that's a nice day out you can actually do windsor in a morning Jackie and come back and do something else um because it's so close there are lots of beautiful leafy suburbs you can go do i think the benchmark though for really a day trip would be like no more than an hour outside of london by train because sometimes there can be railworks and yeah if Jonathan things you know i want to go somewhere where there's where there's regular trains yes back like Oxford there's a train every 15 minutes I think so I mean it's like hopping on the tube Jackie but I think it's really important to note that if you are adventurous enough to do a day trip and you don't have to be a super adventurous person to do them I'm not saying that but I'm saying um you if you are going and you are planning a trip and you're not sure if a day trip outside of London is for you you will have just as great of an experience spending your time in central london seeing all that there is to see and you won't feel like you've missed out unless like john said there's something on your bucket list where you felt like you really needed to experience yeah Jonathan big thing for harry potter fans would be the studio tour where they film the movies pinewood no no leaves then oh sorry so pinewood's where they do star wars movies oh okay um leaves then like the Harry Potter studio tour is advertised as being in London. It's not. Jackie It's in Leavesden, Jonathan which is outside the M25, I believe. Jackie which in our mind is. Yeah. Jonathan The M25 is a circular road around London. That like is kind of the unofficial barrier of greater London. There's exceptions to that, obviously, but so they call the Harry Potter studio tour London, but it's not in London. Jonathan No. Jonathan So if you want to do that, that's fine. There are plenty of buses, dedicated buses to take you to and from there. You can get there on your own, but that will take all day. That's a day trip. Jackie Yeah. Jonathan So, you know, you're going to take at least an hour or more to get there. It's going to take you a few hours to get through it and an hour or two to get back. Like, that's an all-day thing. Another nice day trip, if you want to go to Chartwell, the home of Winston Churchill, that's less than an hour from London, but you've got to take a train to Seven Oaks, which is like a leafy suburb. and then you have to get a taxi from the train station, like, it's not close. Jonathan But there are apps, like... But there are apps, and it's easy to do, Jonathan and the bigger stations, like, Jonathan they always have a taxi rank, Jonathan and it's, you know, you just tell the driver to come pick you up in a couple hours. What other cities are within an hour? Like, don't go to, like, try to plan to go to York or somewhere farther north, because, like, that's a two-hour train ride. Jackie Which it seems like it should be, like, in and out, but it's not. Jonathan No, it's not. Jonathan You know, like places like York deserve more than a day. Jackie True. Jonathan So I would say like don't set your sights go further if you'd like that. Oh, Bath. Bath is a great day trip. Jackie But that is literally going to be a very full day. That's a whole day. Yeah. Jonathan Because it's an hour and a half by train. Jackie So we're kind of breaking our rule here. But like literally no further. Jonathan Yeah, no further than that. So Bath is a great place to spend the day. Jackie That's your mom's favorite. Jonathan Yeah. But it's an all day thing. Jackie Yeah. Jonathan The West Country is great. Salisbury is within striking distance. Jackie Is it? Yeah. It's about Salisbury. It's a gorgeous town. Jonathan People always ask us, can you go to the Cotswolds without a car? And he's like, you can. But all those cute Cotswold villages don't have train stations. Jackie And you don't exactly want to be in the back of a black cab going, take me here and take me here and take me. It's going to get expensive. Jonathan either need to do the Cotswolds on a guided tour or have some excursion take you we have recommendations on our website or you know have a car that's the best way to see the Cotswolds because the Cotswolds is huge like I remember we made a mistake thinking oh we'll drive from one end of the Cotswolds to the other that's a long drive so it's a reason there's a reason why it takes two weeks to do the Cotswolds way British miles yeah British miles um so there are plenty day trips you can take but you'd even go to paris if you want that's also we did that we did that um that's paris is two and a half hours now with the channel with the high speed line you will need to Jackie bring your passport for that because you are going into another country yeah but that's a really really Jonathan long day yeah i paris deserves more than a day i think that if you if you're like i'm over here Jackie i have to do that like i have to go my recommendation would be to go leave early the morning that you want to go stay one night in paris and then come back the next day yeah i think we left on the Jonathan first train out like four or five in the morning and came back on like the last train out and that Jackie was just we were shattered we were shattered and we were in our we were what 19 20 yeah we were 20 yeah that was crazy you did he surprised he surprised me and took me to it's funny he woke me up we were sitting in this london hotel and he woke me up like i don't know like at 3 30 in the morning but like his alarm was late or something and he was like babe you gotta get up get up get dressed like hurry up gotta get and i was like what is the hotel on fire what's going on like what i am not i do not rouse it easily um lots of caffeine is needed and yeah it was a surprise Jonathan he was taking me to paris so but anyway that's yeah this is not francotopia um Jackie so um how about we're just about at an hour here so do you like want to talk about like Jonathan maybe your top two things i was gonna do guidebooks real quick guidebook recommendations okay like ready set go guidebooks okay the rick steves london guidebook buy it that's the best one also buy our guidebook 101 london travel tips on amazon search angletopia um shameless plug uh if it links in the show notes um if you the lonely planet guy is great so is the rough guide but the Rick Steves should be the go-to. Rick Steves, he doesn't write them all anymore but his guidebooks are very well researched Jonathan and they're very useful Jonathan and he's my go-to for travel advice. Also watch his shows on London. They're very good. Jackie Yes. Jonathan And his shows are available for free on his website and his YouTube channel. Jackie Most PBS affiliates will carry it as well. Jonathan So that, okay, so let's, why don't we do top five things you would do if you go to London? Jackie Five? Like if I got on an airplane right now. Jonathan So you do five. Jackie Okay. Are we going to do five with like what kind of budget? Jonathan Five. This is your dream trip. Do five. Okay. My dream trip. Jackie LK Bennett, you've been put on notice. I'm on my way. Get the shoes ready. No. Okay. So I think. All right. I love art. London is the place to see art. Probably National Gallery. um where are all the turners um the tape britain but the good ones are at the national gallery um the tape britain by far i think i think it's kind of my favorite i know everybody's like what not the national gallery tape britain go go go go on a sunday go um there's a very fancy restaurant there and there um the restaurant has murals all over the wall by a very famous artist and i'm doing it a disservice because I didn't prep for this. We'll link to the restaurant in the show notes. It's an experience to sit and eat in this restaurant by itself and take in the art. So we've got art. Jonathan Number three. Number three. Jackie Go to Selfridges. I know that that sounds cliche and like walk around a couple of the big London department stores. I'm not a huge fan of Harrods, but I love Selfridges. Maybe because Harry Selfridge was a Chicago guy and it reminds me of Marshall Fields. But go to Selfridge's. Go to the basement. They've got really cool little, like, independent shops in the basement. Go to the basement. Then I would say maybe do Chinatown. Chinatown, like, Leicester Square, all of that. Super, super cool. Super cool. And it's really cool at night. It's really safe at night. There are police out. And then my like last thing would probably be St. Paul's. And I feel like I like now that I'm thinking about this, like there's a million things going, oh, in here, in here, in here. But go to St. Paul's. It is a beautiful place to be. It's a beautiful place to sit and just collect your thoughts. And it's a quiet place in London. If you can take in a mass, no matter your denomination, you're welcome. Just keep in mind that it is a house of worship. So be respectful of that. And, you know, if you can go to Evensong or something like that, it is an experience you will cherish. So that's my five. Jonathan All right. My five. Jackie Okay. Ready, set, go. Jonathan I'll try and be as fast as her. National Gallery. Jackie Hey, that's on both of ours. And Trafalgar Square. Yep. Jonathan Look at the Turners and the Constables. They're in the same room together. They're my most favorite British paintings. And then I would go to Hatchard's, the oldest bookstore in London. I think it might be the oldest in Britain, too. It's the best bookstore. Jackie Okay. Jonathan Lovely bookstore. And then I would say you need to do a show, a theater. Do the theater. Don't do, like, the rock musicals that are tourist traps. Do, like, a genuine play that's on where, like, famous British actors are taking a few months off from TV and movies and doing a play. Like we did Ian McKellen earlier in the year and we did, I did a Roger alum earlier in the year. Like it's a great, just do a play, do a special play. It's easy to get tickets, do a play. So it's three things. Jonathan Two left. Jonathan Two left. Churchill cabinet war rooms, because it gives you a great frame of reference about what London went through during the blitz and the world war two. And they also now have a Churchill museum dedicated completely to the churchill and it's like i haven't been to it yet which is very bad but um it's supposed to be we'll Jonathan get there i've been to the war rooms i haven't been since they've had the museum so um definitely Jonathan do the cabinet war rooms and then um i would say pick a tour do a tour pick one special tour if you had to pick one tour i would say do a tour of the houses of parliament um you can only do them on certain days when parliament's not in session but the houses of parliament are stunning architecture they're beautiful um the tour guides will be very knowledgeable about british politics and they're explaining it to us pesky foreigners so like it's a great way to get an introduction to british politics and the buildings are just incredible and a half one that would go with that no go with that if you're gonna do a tour oh cheater there's another tour that almost nobody really knows about well they will now it's called the triforium tour yeah and it's at saint paul's cathedral you have to book it like in advance and they only do it like once or twice a month and it's uh it's a tour where they take you up into saint paul's cathedral's triforium which may sound boring because it's basically the closet of the cathedral Jonathan but there's good stuff in those closets good stuff in those closets and you get views of Jonathan the cathedral that you they call it the bbc view and like you're allowed to take pictures but you're not normally allowed to take pictures in saint paul's cathedral this is true so like and then you get to see the model the giant wooden model christopher ren made to try and sell the cathedral Jackie to the king and it's amazing and highly recommend to try for you so we both did saint paul's though Jonathan and we both in the national gallery yeah keep in mind too like um i think like my for cheating here Jackie Number six for me would be the V&A Museum. It's completely free. The treasures of the whole world can be found within its walls. I know that's kind of a touchy subject. Jonathan You mean the British Museum, right? Because V&A is more about design. Jackie No. No. It's V&A. Okay. It doesn't matter. Go to the museums. The V&A is great. They always have amazing exhibitions. Go to the History Museum. Kensington Palace. A little pricey, but if you're really into royal history, super, super nice tours. Jonathan Yeah, that's a caveat there. If you want to tour Buckingham Palace, that is an example of something you would have to do in a summer month. Because they only open it for a few weeks in August and September. I think it's from late July to early September when the Queen isn't there. Jackie Which I can't blame her that she doesn't want the whole world to trip through her living room while she's watching telly. Jonathan She goes to Scotland. I know she does. Jackie I'm being cute. Jonathan But yeah, definitely do a palace. Kensington's usually the one that's open most. Jackie And it's central in London. It's easy to get to. Yeah. Jonathan Yeah, so I'm sure you will now have more questions about planning your first trip to London than you started with. So I'm sorry if this was no help. We are happy to answer questions. So feel free to email us or leave a comment and we'll try to answer your questions. Jackie not a trip plane service but we like to be as helpful as we can and go through our backlog of of trips that we've done we've really done the good the bad the ugly and we've and if you go to Jonathan our on our i'll put it in the show notes as well but there's a main page on angletopia called tour operators and we didn't really talk about guided tours and going on a tour instead of going on independently but there's a great roster of companies that we've worked with for years Jackie on doing guided tours so that that if you don't want to dump jump in yourself yeah these are the Jonathan best companies to work with and then the one at the top which is across the pond vacations the she'll like she they don't do really do tours per se but she'll help you plan she's basically a travel agent she'll help you plan your entire trip and and help you decide what to do and the best hotels to stay in and she's an invaluable resource i highly recommend talking to her if you're really unsure about planning your own trip she'll help you plan it um i think but i think Jackie that's it um all right then we've done the very best we'll just leave with what's the one thing you're like don't do don't see and we're not meaning to like call any any specific attraction out here or anything like that but like what's the one thing where you're like nope i'm gonna cheat Jonathan and say i'm gonna link in the show notes to our list of tourist traps don't go there okay here's because places like madame trousseau's and the london dungeon like oh you've named them I've named names. Jackie Let's just say they're not your cup of tea. Jonathan They're not my cup of tea. Jackie I don't want a phone call from Madame Tussauds. Jonathan They're long lines. They're for tourists. We prefer more heritage. It's so hard to talk about. It's not sounding like a snob. But we prefer real history and real heritage. Jackie But if you want to go, go. Versus something that's designed to be an amusement park. But just because it's not our cup of tea doesn't mean that it's not for everybody. Jonathan No, these places exist for a reason. They are very popular. They are very well-reviewed. Jackie The mic is going to hit you shaking your head, by the way. Jonathan You will most likely have fun if you go to these things. But they're not things that we would do just because that's not the kind of experience we're seeking to have when we're there. I suspect I need to do them just so I can. Jackie You are so going to get letters. Jonathan I have a list on the website. No one ever writes me letters. Jackie I'm just saying. Okay, so I would say the one thing that to be leery of pay attention slash bad experience. If there are so many great places to eat in London. When I first started traveling to London, I felt like I would starve to death because the food is very different. But it is nowhere near the bad rep that it gets. But my very first night in London ever, we went to an Italian restaurant that looked okay. I was young. I didn't know any better. Jonathan Fellow Italian. Jackie Oh, you shamed him again. Oh, my God. We're going to have to talk about this. Jonathan It doesn't help that we've eaten there again since and also had a terrible experience. Jackie Yeah. Jonathan So maybe. Jonathan You can easily identify all the chain restaurants in London because they're everywhere. Jackie avoid those um but um yeah i ended up with food poisoning um which was like my first night in london um that was really really really awful um but you just you know like like you would choose a restaurant here at home like if it looks dirty leave like um you know they say the bathroom go look at the bathroom if the bathroom's filthy no in the show notes there will be a link to our Jonathan restaurant recommendations for london and they're broken down by fancy by budget by type by pub like there's a different type of restaurant for every type of meal you would want to have yes and i i don't want to toot our own horn but this this has been honed from 15 years of travel Jonathan experience so we've done the good bad and the straight up ugly so and there's also a guideline Jonathan on there are things to places to avoid so i would say to consult this list it would be very helpful for you yes if you especially if you're a picky eater like i am yes so i think that's it for this planning a first trip um i'm not sure what the topic is next week but we will decide well we've Jackie got a backlog and we've got some really great ideas from users or users yeah and if you have Jonathan if there's um fans something you want us to talk about um leave us a comment email us we'll add it to the list and um as we go forward i don't think we're going to have so many shows dedicated to one topic we'd like to cover several different things yeah and we also want to leave room to have some guests come on yes but for now um this is it that's the ingotopia podcast thanks for listening. Again, if you have any questions, please let us know. Thank you. Bye-bye.