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Welcome to the Anglotopia podcast where we explore British history, culture and travel. I'm your host, Jonathan Thomas. For many Americans, British film is one of the most important gateways into loving all things British. Before they set foot in the country, they walked through it via a screen. They stood on the York Shore moors with the Brontes, followed Daniel Craig's bond through the streets of London or the the highlands of Scotland.
laughed at the absurdity of the British class system in a Richard Curtis comedy or been swept up in the mud and drama of a period epic. British film doesn't just entertain, it creates the idea of Britain in the American imagination. But what actually makes British cinema distinctive? Why has it endured and captivated audiences on both sides of the Atlantic for a century? What does a British film scholar make of the complicated, fascinating relationship between Hollywood and the home of Shakespeare?
So my guest today is Spencer Murphy, Assistant Professor in Media and Communications at Coventry University, where he teaches and researches film theory and audience studies. Spencer's specialist fields includes cost cultural analysis, post-colonial theory, and Southeast Asian cinema. What an interesting array of subjects there.
things there, yes.
And he's also the founder of the Coventry East Asian Film Society. So he's a film scholar with a genuinely wide lens, which makes him the perfect person to help us think about what British film is, where it comes from and why it matters. So Spencer, welcome to podcast.
Thank you for having me. What an introduction that was, Jonathan. Yes, I hope I live up to that. But yes, I certainly love my film and I love looking at it from all different cultural perspectives. this, know, I'm delighted to be on ⁓ talking to you about this particular subject.
Well, thank you for being here. So let's start at the beginning then. So before we dive into British film subjectively, tell us about your own journey into film studies and how you ended up teaching cinema and academia.
I mean, to be honest, Jonathan, I wish I could say it was a, you know, it was my ⁓ lifelong dream of mine. And I'd worked, you know, diligently towards it since I was a, you know, a boy. It really wasn't, you know, I've always loved movies, you know, since I was as far back as I can remember. And I'm showing my age here. So being a kid of like the the 80s for me, it was a
You know, free internet was videotaped. was pre blockbuster. So it was kind of, you know, what you'd call out the mom, the moms and pops corner stores of video and film for me was a was a discover just a discovery all of the time. I knew I would watch anything and everything. You know, it was it was something I did every single day of my life. ⁓ And it wasn't until.
⁓ later on I suppose in my mid-20s I was always quite knowledgeable about film at a conversational level, boring people ⁓ and then eventually I ended up you know making the decision to do a ⁓ master's degree in not film actually but it was kind of visual culture and I think that's a real distinction I think between the two was
I was always interested in the kind of cultural element because when I grew up, really loved Hong Kong movies like Bruce Lee and that was the side of film that interested me more than anything else, which was kind of how one culture looks at another culture and how film can educate us or miseducate us as well.
And so it was, kind of, not, wouldn't say I fell into it, I had to work very hard, but it was, was, I kind of ended up inside, you know, film theory, doing a PhD and, but more so from the cultural aspect of it, the visual culture than what I would call a kind of film studies background.
So yeah, film permeates our lives no matter where we grew up. And many Anglotopia fans don't know this, but I actually met my wife, Mrs. Anglotopia, on our first day of film school in Chicago. ⁓ We didn't finish film school, but ⁓ we finished our degrees elsewhere, but we both have a passion for the visual medium. it's, yeah.
WHAAAAT
wow, fantastic.
So I try to bring a filmic perspective to things. So I will see how. So your research specialty is Southeast Asian cinema, particularly post 1997 Hong Kong. So you've conducted field research and you've interviewed leading figures in the industry. So how does that vantage point looking at British culture from that perspective look and how is, know, to give geographic context, Southeast Asian means
Hong Kong and that area of Asia. And so that obviously a British colony. So that those films probably have a very ⁓ strong British influence. So how does how does all that look? So the very complicated question.
I mean, a hundred percent that's, yeah, no, no, but I think you've,
you know, you've identified it in a nutshell. That's what fascinated me, you know, about that particular area of the world and the cinema from that area of the world was, you know, the fact that it was a British colony, you know, for many, years, you know, that watching Hong Kong films, the thing I remember when I was young, I mean, I didn't know about the politics, you know, just watching the films.
was the fact that you had so many of the streets in Hong Kong, Chinese signs, but then it would have like Royal Albert Street and there would be like buses that looked like London bus. And it always fascinated me that what was this? I remember my dad saying to me, oh, well, it's part of Britain. And I was like, what? That can't be so. So that, you know, how...
I suppose different cultures sit next to one another, but then also how they represent one another. And the big thing for me was growing up was trying to understand why I was enjoying these films where you had these Chinese, you know, ⁓ or Southeast Asian ⁓ heroes kicking the butts of ⁓ predominantly white people, you know, and usually white British people as well. You know, they were the enemies and somehow that
connected with me as a kid, really. I think it's to do with topics and areas I'm sure we're gonna talk about today, about class and the complexities of British culture, ironically, were being played out ⁓ in these films coming out of that particular region. So for me, it was a massive interest. And then really interested in what happens to people and to cinema.
when the coloniser, so to speak, well not so to speak, the coloniser, disappears, when they actually go, when they evacuate and leave it, what happens, you know, in a post-1997, what do people think? Do people miss the British? they, you know, what happens? So for me, that was like a moment of real interest for me about what is retained and what...
what did people love about that part of their own culture, beat the tea, you know, the Yorkshire tea or beat the street, now it's beats the food and what happens. it was, yeah, it was kind of the epitome for me of everything that I was interested in. I mean, not just that, of course, but it really was a focal point for me in terms of cinema and the power of cinema.
you know, to represent these stories.
Well, and then, and that's a great way to, that's a great segue into talking about culture. So let's start with sounds like a simple question, but probably isn't a simple question. What exactly is a British film? Because is it where the money comes from? Is it where it's shot? Is it who made the movie? Is it the cast that is in it? So like the definition can get split very quickly. So in your mind, what is a British film?
Yeah.
You know, but, John, I mean, you've started there with probably the most difficult question you could possibly imagine because, you know, it's impossible, I think, to answer that as a broad stroke, you know, because it's dependent upon the film because you could have films that look very, very, very, very British, you know, with the aristocracy. However, they're not British at all. You know, they're not.
in any way, shape or form made ⁓ by British people, so to speak, in terms of where the money's coming from. So it's very, very, very difficult because even if the money's coming from overseas, the film could still be very, very British, depending upon who's behind the film and what the purpose of
that film is who the audience for that film is. I mean, for me personally, ⁓ what constitutes a British film is in my own personal opinion, is definitely about the people who are, although the money's very important, but the people who are behind the scenes and in front of the scenes as well, the actors, the writers, the ⁓ production crew, all the people that form
you know, the artistic vision of whatever this film is. ⁓ And if they're predominantly British, then it's almost a discredit to the film in some ways to go, yes, but you know, the money's come from Warner Brothers or the money's come from, because you could level that at all sorts of even American films. You know, I always think of ⁓ David Lynch.
you know, makes these Americana films, you know, and most of his more recent films are funded from France. And no one would dream of saying, you know, Mulholland Drive is a French film, you know, but then it's such a complicated, but maybe people might actually, but it's such a complicated set of factors that I think have only got more complicated over the last.
particularly the last 20 years, certainly post 2000, it's become very, very complicated. And I think we've seen that even in nominations for things like BAFTAs, know, the British, you know, equivalent of the Oscars. We know what constitutes a British film. It's a really, really difficult question. So I've dodged the question, Jonathan. I've actually dodged that question. I hope you noticed. I'm trying to dodge it there, yes.
It's okay. I didn't expect a detailed answer because like you said, it's so complicated. just yesterday when I was going through my notes and I went through my Plex library of all my British films I have, I have a British film category and there's like 500 movies in there. And I've seen a lot of British films and ⁓ there's so many I haven't seen, which we won't get into that discussion because you'll be disappointed that the ones I haven't seen. ⁓
Wow. Yeah.
Yeah.
But like I was looking at my list of my favorite British films and I'm going through it. I'm like, well, wait, well, that's not quite British. I mean, it's it's like there's British actors in it. But the setting and then like I'm like, is that one? That was definitely a Hollywood film, but it's considered a British film. And so it's like, again, like you get into the weeds, it gets very complicated. And I know ⁓ like for me, a British film and I'm going to answer the question because because ⁓ it
Yeah.
Go on, no, please, please do, I'm
fascinated yet.
For me and as somebody who wants to consume British content, a British film has either a setting or a cultural setting that is identifiably British. So ⁓ when Hollywood comes with a big check and hires people to make a British film and they've hired a British production company and they've hired a British cast, to me that feels authentically British. But then
So, yeah.
But then you, like you said, you get into the weeds when you think, oh, well, okay, one of my favorite films of all time is The Remains of the Day, a story that's so uniquely British, but those are Merchant Ivory films, those are really a product of former British Imperial subjects coming to Britain and making a period film. it like, you get into the weeds like that. I know that, yeah, so that's my answer to the question.
Yeah, you're dodging it there, you're dodging it as well there John. I couldn't agree more, you know, it's so, it's so, so difficult. And the minute, I mean, even myself, when I start thinking about, you know, British film, and I'm sure you're the same with this John, there's certain films that you just go, oh yes, that's a British film. No question, no one's going to argue that this is a British film. And then there's other films where go, that's, hmm, is it?
Well, then and then you look at and you can tell when Hollywood makes a British film and doesn't hire British people or sets it in Britain and an American wrote the screenplay or they cast American actors who tried to do a British accent and you can you can tell those failures immediately just because but but
Still? Yeah.
⁓ 100%, yeah. I mean, I always
call it the, there's a measure for me. think you've got the measure in terms of British film you have got ⁓ that is kind of almost like the Mary Poppins test. It's like the, a film that, mean, Mary Poppins, of course, is not even shot in the UK. But it's that test. It's kind of like,
You know, and what was the film called as well? Free Men and a Little Lady, ⁓ which had a sequence that moved to the UK. it was all, I mean, those films, they're not, they're very British. There's a lot of British things in them, but they're not. know, they are a tourist, you know, vision. I have little doubt has never been to the UK.
their version of what the UK is, know, what Britain is to them. And unfortunately, you keep, you know, you see many examples of that, you know, chocolate box ⁓ kind of Britain. And, you know, even films with the best of intentions can kind of, you know, slip into that problematic representation.
All right. And then like we win the most popular British films over here would be like the Harry Potter films. James James Bond films. And and those are 100 percent Hollywood money and their vision. And even with the Harry Potter films, some of the directors were American or not even or Mexican, but now Fanzal Cuarón. So like, you know, that was that was foreign or interpreting a vision of Britain that they think American audiences want to see. And yet.
yeah.
No, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Those films are so beloved with Angle Files or even even the Downton Abbey movies are funded by American money, you know, and and I was thinking about this and making my list. I'm like, you know, one of the greatest films of all time is Lawrence of Arabia. Is is that a British film? Because it's a British subject, but 90 % of it takes place in a place that's not Britain. The subject matter is World War One, which is which is a very British topic.
Mm-mm-mm.
Sure. Sure.
course.
very complicated and it gets and just I'm going to put another layer of complication on is then of course you have these representations of British culture. You mentioned Harry Potter that then have an effect on British culture as well. So British cultural feel that they need to, you know, represent themselves in that way.
to in order to meet the expectations of tourists, for example, you know, is you've got villages in the UK, you feel, you know, I mean, there's a lovely place called Burton on the water, which is a beautiful chocolate box village. And you go there and you you notice little shops selling Harry Potter things. And, and because they know that this is, you know, the audience, the tourists who are coming over, you've got to kind of meet that, you know, that,
expectation as well of what is expected or therefore there's going to be disappointment you know it's like it's like I don't know visiting China and going you know this place is great but where's Chinatown you know it's that kind of you know and I think there's an element of that it can have an impact as well which is kind of where it gets really mutated and problematic
Well, and that's, ⁓ I never thought of it that way, that it's actually a two-way conversation. I never thought of it that way. See, I'm learning something. I should take your course. And you've mentioned that these movies make an idea in our heads of what to expect when we go to Britain. And when I first went to Britain in 2001, pre-911, I should emphasize because the world was completely different then. ⁓
Hahaha
Yeah.
Sure, yeah. Love it.
I was actually disappointed at first because London did not match what films and TV shows had prepared for me. It laid the groundwork. But I would actually argue with you or agree with you that in the last 25 years or so, London and like you said, villages and places have adapted to cater to that. Like think of the shambles in York. The whole street is Harry Potter stores and tea shops and that's what people want to see, you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
100%, I mean, I think as you mentioned, London as well, know, is it's, you know, the representation of it in the film, you know, from ⁓ an outsider's eyes then has an impact on, you know, on what that space becomes or has to become in order to meet.
It's like a snake eating its tail. It's such a strange relationship. ⁓ mean, Britain's not on its own in that, ⁓ but it's a very, very peculiar... ⁓ For Britain in particular, think, given, as you mentioned, the big iconography of these films.
is around, not even around history at the moment, you know, for a contemporary audience, it's around, as you mentioned, Harry Potter, you know, which I think is unquestionably the biggest export that British cinema, you know, again, problematic, has had, you know, and to go to, you know, Disney World and walk around, you know, Harry Potter land or whatever, and it's...
Well, that's what's funny is, is in the discourse is everyone's talking about they're making a TV show on Harry Potter and everyone's like, why are they making a TV show? They already did the movies. The movies are great. Why would they make a TV show? And all I can say is it's going to be the most popular television show on the planet. I mean, it's going to be, it's going to be bigger than game of Thrones. No, I mean, even taking into consideration the, the,
No question.
No question about it, yeah.
the discourse backlash against J.K. Rowling, most of the world does not care. It's gonna be the most popular show ever. And I wonder how that will change the tourism landscape because even more people are gonna be coming to Britain for that Harry Potter experience.
And also, I what's really going to fascinate me about the new ⁓ about the TV show is is and you touched on it is how they're going to shoot it, how they're going to film it. I mean, I saw obviously in the UK, you'll see, ⁓ you know, images of them where they're filming it and and, you know, ⁓ and I'm fascinated about how they're going to film it, because the first.
because Britain has changed, know, and even since the first one, you know, and it's going to be fascinating how they, whether it's more gritty, whether it's more, I don't know, I'm fascinated how they're going to film it and how it's going to look and what approach they take to it.
title? Yeah, I've been wondering that since they announced the show because the visual language of Harry Potter is very distinctly rooted in Gothic and neo-Gothic look and feel. And I'm like, well, what are you going to do to do this all over again? Because that's what people are going to expect to see. But also, if you're creating something new, you want a new visual language. And I think I got my answer when they released the trailer and seen the set pictures. ⁓
Yeah, yeah. Yeah?
Yeah?
Yeah, yeah.
They, a lot of people don't realize that even people who read the books that Harry Potter is actually a period piece. set in the nineties. And so the new show is distinctly going to be set in the nineties. People are wearing nineties fashion. ⁓ The cars of nineties, because even though the movies started just after the nineties, they rooted them in nearly 2000. So the look and feel is very, it's very modern. So I think that's one way they're going to change the visual identity is they're very much rooting it in the nineties.
Okay, yeah, yeah.
Mm-mm. Mm-mm. Mm-mm. Mm-hmm.
right okay yeah.
Which is, yeah, which is again, a really clever, I think that's a really clever move as well, particularly when you look at the, you know, the popularity of that kind of nostalgic, you know, thinking of stranger things, you know, is you've got, although it's very different, but you've got that. And to go to the 90s, I didn't realize that actually, but that's a very interesting.
⁓ aesthetic for them to touch on, particularly as you mentioned with that moment in British culture. But again, as I've said, I think it will have a, no doubt at all, that it's going to have an enormous impact on Britain and how it tries to represent itself, particularly to tourism, which is an enormous part of the British economy.
So British cinema often has key genres that we kind of expect. There's social realism, there's the heritage film, there's kitchen sink drama, there's slapstick British comedy, or even sarcastic British comedy. The gangster film and the spy thriller. Do you think these characterizations are accurate or does it sort of flatten a more complex culture?
Yeah, yeah.
No, think there's, you know, I mean, of all those genres that you mentioned, I think that what British cinema has managed to do with all of those is really add something, I think anyway, that's very distinctively British and British sensibilities into those genres. Even, you know, I mean, I would add it's a big...
no area of love of mine would be the kind of hammer horror you know of the way in which you know ⁓ British cinema injected its own ⁓ sense of identity into something that was you know Dracula films or even Frankenstein films going back to you universal pictures of the 20s.
and 30s in America and gave it something very distinctly British. think all of us, don't, I wouldn't say that it flattens, it flattens the culture or it, ⁓ but of course there are always examples within all of those genres of films that do exactly that, ⁓ that reduce the culture down and offer very bland representations of complex ideas. But then at the end of the day, that's what cinema from,
anywhere in the world tends to do. It has to offer recognizable stereotypes, for example, in order to communicate to the audience. But, you know, there are films within all of those genres that are made for different audiences, because that's what I think is enormously important, is who are these films made for? Are they made for an international audience? Are they made to try and...
you know, a touch base beyond Britain or are they British films that are made for British people?
So following on from that, there's an argument that one of the most enduring qualities of British cinema is its relationship to class. That British films are almost always consciously or not about the class system. And if you even look at Harry Potter films, class stratification is present.
Yes.
So do you buy that and why do you think Britain itself and its filmic enterprises is so obsessed with class when Americans just couldn't be bothered even though we love class stories?
Because I think, I yeah, I am completely preoccupied by class. think class ⁓ in terms of British culture, heritage, history is such a complex, ⁓ convoluted set of unwritten rules. You know, it's been mythologized as well, you know, in literature and, you know, and...
It's so difficult, I think even for British people to truly understand it, let alone, you know, ⁓ trying to communicate that out to an international audience. And I think the movies that are quite successful in trying to communicate how class operates within, historically within the UK are films that will do it in a...
quite explicit way when I mean explicit, they will literally be what I would call upstairs, downstairs films, know, where you've got, you know, be it Downtown Abbey or Remains of the Death, you know, or the Merchant Ivory films, you know, where it's literally the aristocracy live above ground, so to speak, do very little work, and the working people live underneath them and...
you know, the needs of those above them. And I think that class in the UK is not, which is a very difficult thing to get across in movies, it's not that it's, you know, related purely to finance, to how much money you have. You can be a very, very wealthy working class person. You could be a millionaire and you'll always be working class. ⁓
And, you know, that idea of class being embedded, you know, generationally that this is going back, you know, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years, middle class people who don't have a lot of money and movies, you know, articulate that struggle. And there is an enormous preoccupation, certainly from, I would say, the 1960s.
late 1960s, 70s, particularly the 80s of British cinema really trying to represent class and class struggle, ⁓ you know, through narrative cinema. And we get wonderful examples of it that are quite contemporary as well, because a lot of the popular films that have certainly reached international audiences that relate to class are invariably
about things that happened 200 years ago. Downtown Abbey obviously being a very contemporary example because it's a kind of safe space to talk about it as well, to go back and look at something from 200 years ago. But those films are, you know, they're not historical documents, you know, they are mythologies in and of themselves, you know, about the struggle. But a lot of the popular figures
of British cinema, know, the icons I would say, are, you know, completely interconnected with class, know, be it Sherlock Holmes, it ⁓ Robin Hood, you know, all the way through to James Bond, you know, that they are very, there's a distinct class struggle that goes on in those films. And I'm always heartened and delighted to see some films that are
I would argue that are made predominantly for a British audience ⁓ that really represents, know, class and class problems and struggles, which are usually regional and dependent on area, you know, break out and reach international audiences. I think it's wonderful when that happens.
Yeah, and I could just off the top of my head examples, especially from the 90s like the Full Monty, ⁓ Billy Elliot, and even, and it's more subtle, but even Richard Curtis's films, ⁓ like Notting Hill and Bridget Jones, and even Love Actually has classed.
Definitely. Yep. Yep.
Yeah,
100%. I mean, I mean, I think most British cinema, you know, again, you know, when we were talking, you were looking through, your library of British movies, I was thinking about, you know, British movies, and think about the ones that really, you know, connected with me when I was growing up ones that really stuck with me. And I can't think of it, well, maybe one or two that aren't, you know, about
about class, you know, and about class struggle. And I think that for myself and a person like that coming from the kind of, know, and heavily industrial area of the UK and Birmingham ⁓ and a very particular area called the black country because of its, you know, the filth of the industrial revolution that was there is class for me.
has been an enormous part of my growing up with my family, you know, and then also, you know, to then move into what a lot of people would call a very middle class kind of job, a lecturer working at university. But my accent, the way I speak, where I live, where I'm from, is working class and it will never leave me, you know. And people in Britain, you know, I teach a lot of international students.
It is, I try to show them movies which are, you know, distinctly working class and quite regional and things that won't have traveled very well. But to me, you know, are quite universal in ⁓ their messaging as well.
And I was going to say ⁓ British people can immediately identify a lot about a fellow British person as soon as they open their mouth. You you can immediately tell class where you're from and make and you can make lots of assumptions about a person. And that's not that's not a great thing. At least especially from an American perspective, because ⁓ generally, you know, while you can make
No.
assumptions based on the way somebody speaks often, a lot of the times you can be wrong. And then especially, and we're getting off the rails here, but in America, because of our entertainment, because of movies and TV shows, a lot of our accents have been flattened. So like I'm from the Midwest, our accent is very flat. And if you watch movies, you'll find that a lot of movies, the actors will sound like Midwesterners, but like, but like,
mid Midwesterners, not upper Midwesterners because because then you get then you get a unique accent the further north you go. but like it does has flattened the accent. So you can actually can't really, especially with Hollywood actors is you actually most of time can't tell where they're from because they speak in a very flat accent. But it's not the case in Britain.
Yeah, yeah,
No, no, I mean, I mean, I think, I mean, you know, and that's one of the, I always think that's one of the most surprising things for people, you know, tourists coming to the UK would be that literally you can drive, you know, 30 minutes, 45 minutes from where I live and they have an entirely different accent. You know, they use word, different words. And if you drive an hour, you know, or an hour and a half, then...
You know, they may as well be speaking a different language altogether, even I can't understand some things, you know. And I think that in terms of, but again, I think in terms of cinema, you know, there was a struggle as decades went on for, you know, if you go into the 1920s, 1930s, you know, there was a Queen's English, there was one particular kind of accent.
that was used in films. was very, oh yes, very good, oh dear. was very, you know, there was a way of speaking and even, you know, British actors who made it to America took this very strange accent with them and then blended it with, I mean, you think of someone like Cary Grant or, you know, you think of this very peculiar accent that some of them had.
which was this almost no accent whatsoever. And I think over the years, it's been such a struggle, I think, to get from that point to train spotting. It's kind of that journey has been a long, difficult one, where I'm sure...
Even people in the UK would need subtitles for a lot of things that are going on in train spotting, you know? But it's the reality, you know, that is a fair representation, you know? That is how people actually speak.
Well, yeah, and then you've got even more layers there that's in Scotland. They have 30 different Scottish accents and then, yeah. And inner city culture versus working class. like, yeah, it's a ball of interesting cultural stuff there. And if you look back, you're right, and you look back to like old Ealing comedies, even those, a lot of those are really about class and everybody has that state.
100 %
has that same clipped, you know, transatlantic upper accent, weird accent. It's so bizarre.
I think, as I said, if you go through, you know, decade by decade in terms of British cinema from the 20s, ⁓ the 40s, you've got a cinema that's trying to represent and looking for, you know, post-war, trying to find a sense of its own identity as well. And also to some extent, you could argue, you know, trying to...
not reinstate class, that's the wrong way of putting it, but laying out ⁓ the parameters once more, because the great leveler of class was the war, the Second World War, when it really didn't matter, of course, who your parents were, ⁓ people were dying at every rank, so to speak, in military and in the country itself. ⁓
But it's, yeah, it's been a, it's a very, again, another one, very, very, very complicated.
So we answered a ton of questions in that one. No, this is a great, like, it's very clear. I'm already going to have to have you on again to talk about the more of this subject because we're not even scratching the surface.
I don't even... I know. I'm sorry. Let's get back to Harry Potter. Harry Potter's the best one.
Hahaha!
let's connect to British literature. So British cinema has a deep relationship with literature. So adapting novels and plays and stories that carry the weight of national culture. Is that literary inheritance a strength or do you think it might hold British film back from developing its own cinematic language?
I think it can. mean, I think that the heritage of, you know, the Great Brit, always think of Jane Eyre, of course, you know, the continual, ⁓ you know, same stories being told time and time again, I think can be problematic for ⁓ British film, you know, be that.
You know, even Robin Hood, you know, I know that's maybe not a classic novel, but it's it's the it's the idea of certain kinds of stories being being retold and remade and and on repeat and invariably to go back to the thing we talked about previously, that these, you know, these these kinds of films will invariably invariably be being funded from, you know,
⁓ Hollywood. ⁓ And it can reduce British scenario, new voices, new stories, things that need to be told, even more contemporary ⁓ perspectives on British culture, rather than keep going back to ⁓ narratives that are about
18th century and you know it can get from a British perspective You know it can get very tiresome and maybe that's why some of those some of them don't do that well ⁓ You know in the UK, but then something like Downton Abbey is immensely popular in the UK ⁓ But in terms of the literature itself, you know, we could go all the way back to Shakespeare can't we you know, is these things being retold and and and
and remade time and time and time again for different audiences. I mean, my perspective on it is it's tiresome, you know, and I think it can reduce British cinema, the potency of it. ⁓ But then at the same time, you have to balance that. know, these things are...
are popular for a reason and they find their audience in ways and if you can find your audience with these stories being retubbed, being Wuthering Heights, whatever it may be, it brings money and maybe allows for other smaller stories to be told. So you've got to, I'm not a advocate of, we shouldn't be doing this and the British film industry shouldn't be churning these things out.
I think if, as long as the money that comes in is then filtered in a way that allows some smaller filmmakers, ⁓ you know, the time and the money to make their films, you know. And I think, you know, to again, to an extent, you know, through various channels, be it Film4, even the BBC have managed to filter money.
you know, to very singular voices in cinema that have gone on to become, you know, world beat Danny Boyle or, you know, they've managed to filter money to filmmakers who've been able to tell their stories that have been reached an audience beyond the UK.
So it makes me wonder what your thoughts are on the new Wuthering Heights film.
⁓ they're not good, I can tell you that. They're not good at all. ⁓ I did, I mean, I'll be honest, I I thought it was absolutely atrocious. I really did. I thought it was awful from beginning to end.
Both Mrs. Anglotopia and I hated it and I've seen every adaptation of the great night. The thing is, is I love Saltburn, so it's not. I don't think it's the directors. Yeah, because that's a great exploration of class like like I don't. I don't like Wilder in Heights looks great, but the.
Same here, yeah.
Yeah.
the way the story was told, I just think it didn't do the story any justice. it was hard to get through. And I mean, by like an hour, I'm like looking at my phone, like this is not held my attention. But it's a shame because the cast is great. mean, even Martin Clune's like is fantastic in it. He shows range, he never showed on Doc Martin. yet like all the ingredients were there for a great
100 % yeah
No it didn't. It's really difficult. It's difficult to put your finger on but I think if you're going in with the weight of other movies as well I think sometimes I always try and balance that a little bit when I'm scared, if I'm thinking this is dreadful but then who's it made for? Is it made for...
Is that made for a kind of, you know, a much, well obviously I I think it's made for a much younger audience who are not going in with, you know, with all these, what I would call, I mean I'll call it cultural cargo, you know, that you kind of carry into movies, all the other movies you've seen and all, know. ⁓ And is it made for people of a particular vintage, as I would say, you
Or is it, are they trying, is that one? But that one I didn't understand because I wasn't sure who it was made for. I was like, really, is this made for like 19 year olds? Cause I don't get it.
Yeah, and that's that's that takes me back to my academic days and you know the number one question ⁓ that my professors would always have us ask when we're analyzing something is who is who is this for? And if you can easily identify what something who something is for, then you can easily you can appreciate something in a way even if you didn't like it. And and I think by the end of Wuthering Heights I was like I like you said.
Who is this for? I don't, I maybe I'm 42. I'm too old to get the younger generations, but even if I made my teenagers watch it, I don't think they would have liked it. So I.
No,
don't, it's just, it's just, you know, I mean, I'll watch it and I'll think, you know, ⁓ you cannot beat, you know, Lawrence Olivia, for me, the 1930s one, you know, just the look of it, the feel of it, you know, the black and white, you know, that to me is Wuthering Heights for me. I know for other people it's probably a more contemporary one, but for me, that's it. And so I watch it, think, you know, it's never gonna, you know, but it's that.
which is the most important thing, I think we touched on it before, is understanding, you know, who is this film for, why has it been made, and who is this trying to connect with? And that's why even other, you know, films that are about British culture, you know, that are big budget, got big, I haven't got huge problems with them because you can see what they're trying to do. You know, even if the representation of British culture is problematic, but...
something like Wuthering Heights. I just don't, I didn't even feel British to me. to me, I don't know what it felt like.
Well, what's frustrating is one of my biggest criticisms of modern film, and especially in the streaming age, is that movies have no texture anymore. They're all flatly lit. There's no grain because everything's digitally shot. And so this movie had texture and grain. And I was like, this is great. I've enjoyed looking at this. But man, am I not enjoying anything else in this movie.
No. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
No, no, it's
a really strange one. It's a really strange film for me. ⁓ I can't put it into words really. don't know why nothing clicked with me at all with that film.
So again, we got off topic talking about whether it hides, but it's a great segue into my next question about landscape. So the British landscape has always kind of been a character in British film. And I know for me, that's one of the things that has made me love Britain so much is the landscape. So the Yorkshire more, the London street, the Hills of the West country, the crumbling country houses. So how does place function in British cinema in a way that's different from Hollywood? Because Hollywood will make up
yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
will make up the place or they'll just create an approximation of the place. But when you film something in Britain, you usually get the place.
Yes. think, you know, place and space in, you know, in representations of Britain in film and British cinema, you know, it's a character in and of itself. But I also believe that that is a sentiment, I think, for British people in general, I think a deep pride in their area.
you know, permeates everything, you know, be it you go into, you know, sport and football and, you know, the way in which people have a connection with their, their, their where they were born, even if they've moved away. And that can be, you know, the sprawling landscapes of the the of Cotswolds or it can be like me, you know, a harsh industrial, you know,
I'm still deeply proud of that. And people are, if you speak to people in Liverpool, they will talk about the docks and that, like it's a paradise. And I think there's a real deep pride in the area, in the look of it. And I think that in terms of film, there's a real, think...
when things are shot here. I mean, I could be wrong. We talked briefly about whether it's a British film depends on who's behind the cameras. I think there's such pride in location managers and production designers who are from the UK, if they've got to make something in the UK, to get it authentic, to get it feeling right, to get it looking right. ⁓ And it plays in...
absolutely enormous part of British culture. And I think in terms of British film, ⁓ that heritage part of listed buildings and things being preserved. And I'm not just talking about castles. It can be a giant metal pump that's by us is listed. You cannot touch it. It's because it's part of ⁓ this local heritage.
And it's fascinating to see that played out, because where I'm from is where they film Peaky Blinders and it's just up the road. They're filming the new series of it. people are watching it, looking for that. Is this accurate? Have they got that right? You can't turn the street into there because it would take it...
It's that kind of micro level of criticism. And I think that that reflects itself in not all, of course, but you see it in films that are made in the UK, that are about very particular cultural touchstones of Britain. But I do, think it plays an enormous role in British cinema. ⁓
Maybe that is, I can't say, I couldn't say, but maybe again, that is something that for a lot of great British films that have ⁓ appeal to international audiences, that it is precisely that kind of ⁓ feel, you know, ⁓ from these films that makes people look at British film as distinctly British.
That's it, I can't say that because I'm too biased or I'm too involved in it, you know, but I think there's something about it definitely.
So for my last question before we get into our favorites real quick before you have to go, why do you think Americans love British films so much? I'm interested in know what you think.
that's it. Well, it's the same. You know, I was thinking about this. ⁓ Obviously, we've just had the recent, you know, King Charles visiting and and giving his speech in Congress, you know. ⁓ And there was something about that speech which I thought spoke volumes about British culture in general in how. Understated it was, but how deeply
critical and... Not offensive, wasn't offensive in any way. was something, in short, was something so British about that speech where he completely undercut ⁓ the president, you know, he undercut political issues, but he did it in a way where nobody could quite...
was almost, was, and it was like, wow, if ever there was a quintessential British thing, it would be that, you know, it's that sarcasm. It is that, that is, and the self-deprecating nature, I think of British culture in general. I think it varies depending where you are in the country, of course, but there's something,
incredibly self-deprecating about British culture and even, you know, the icons of British culture be James Bond, there's still kind of, there's something self-deprecating about them all the time. Even Harry Potter, Robin Hood, there's that level of not being afraid to laugh at yourself or see your own shortcomings, but also quite pointedly raise them to others, you know.
in a way that does not offend. And I think there's something, ⁓ may offend, but you you go home and think about it later. And I think British film, I think even the subject material of British film is not afraid to be very self-deprecating. You know, we talked about humor, you know, with Monty Python, the full Monty.
There's something about it where it's this complete ridicule of what it is to be British and even, you know, ⁓ to go to Merchant Ivory films, films that are deeply critical of the class structure and, you know, and I think that appeals. And again, I'm not sure Hollywood film in general ⁓ is always very good at doing that.
it can be very, you know, congratulatory. ⁓ You know, you're never going to see a British, you know, a British version of Top Gun, for example. It's just never going to happen.
and I think even if you look, if you were to do a side by side with, you know, the Battle of Britain or Dambusters, and you put them opposite with, you shouldn't, because they're made in completely different moments, of course, but you look at them, and there is something distinct, I think, distinctly different in terms of their representation of heroism as well.
I would say that King Charles's speech was a master class in threading the needle ⁓ carefully. It was great. I loved it. So I know you have to go. So we're gonna do something. We're gonna do a lightning round. Give me your top five British films and what you would define as a British film.
Now that is hard. I have because you prepared me, you've pre-warmed me of this. I've tried. I've tried my best. Now whether they're British films, this is we're going to have to do an old other podcast on whether because you're probably like what is that? I don't know. I would go from the earliest is what for me a film had a massive impact on me as a kid was Rebecca, the Alfred Hitchcock, you know.
Wow, what a film. ⁓ Kind of Wuthering Heights feel to it as well. I think they even remade that one. But the original, the direction of it, it scared me as a kid immensely. I don't know why. And was everything I was scared of about the kind of aristocracy in one film. know, it was there. Rebecca would be a film. Here's a contentious one for you. Doctor No.
Is that a I don't know, you know, it's a funny one. But to me, quintessential Bond, you know, I don't think you're to get any better than that. My third one is a big passion of mine is Hammer Horror films. So it's got to be The Devil Rides Out. 1960s Christopher Lee and Charles Gray, who was in so many. He was in Bond films as well. Like the ultimate British villain. If you want to get a British villain.
this guy, Charles Gray, that is it. And then for me, some of these films we talked about, The Full Monty, loved that movie so much, just its representation of class. The thing I love about that, and I'm going on, I'm shut up, sorry, is, The Full Monty, I love that movie because it represents working class, not as a bleak, downtrodden, kind of cares.
Kind of Mike Lee, know, the working classes are all miserable. Is the full Monty represents, you know, misery, but there's joy in the misery. And then the only other one I've got is a film, more contemporary film, which is much bleaker is a film called Dead Man's Shoes, which is a Shane Meadows film who actually is from the Midlands. He made a film called Once Upon a Time in the Midlands and
If out of them all, it's a film I would urge anybody, it's very, very harrowing ⁓ film, but it's just, it's just masterful. It's a film I've seen about three times. It's a film I show students because it touches on class and it touches also upon, you know, all kinds of things to do with 1980s and the downtrodden and...
And it's, but it's, it's harrowing and awful, but, but a film had a massive impact on me. So that's mine, but what about yours? I wanna know.
All right, I'll do it quickly. Well, my number one, which I mentioned already, is The Remains Today. I think that's the, to me, that film encapsulates Britain in so many ways. And my special interest area in British history is the interwar period. So like that, that film to me, it's one of the, one of the few perfect films. My next would be a major Hollywood production known as Master and Commander of the Far Side of the World.
social.
Yeah. Yeah.
Fantastic. Yeah.
Wow,
yeah, yeah, yeah.
⁓ That I mean that is that movie is when I need to pick me up. I put that movie on. That's again. It's a perfect movie. Yeah, big Hollywood budget, but and made by Zealander. But that movie is so British with the class system on the boat and that the boat is England like I love that movie so much. ⁓ Next would be the movie about time of Richard Richard Curtis movie. ⁓ That movie was miss marketed. It was.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
marketed as a romantic comedy, but that's not what the movie's about. ⁓ I just, I love that movie. It's a great New Year's Day movie because it takes place every year. So, and then ⁓ fourth is this is, this is going to be out there for a lot of people. may not even heard of this movie. It's called Tamara Drewe And so it was made like 15 years ago and it, to me, it's one of the best adaptations of Far From The Madding Crowd. It's a
No, I've not heard of this yet.
It's a modern take on Far From the Madding Crowd adapted from a graphic novel that was a modern take on it. And it's got a great British cast in it. And it's to me, it does class and the British countryside. Great. And it takes place in Dorset which is my favorite place. ⁓ I'm going to go over five. ⁓ That Hamilton Woman is a great historical epic. Churchill's favorite movie, ⁓ but a great ⁓
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
exploration of the Napoleonic Wars. ⁓ And then ⁓ the movie Hot Fuzz, which is a parody, a satire of the Hollywood movies, but with the English twist and its small English village, it's perfection. ⁓ And then ⁓ On Chesil Beach, to me, is a great exploration of 1960s Britain. And then I've done more than five, but...
That's it. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yep.
Yes.
Right, yeah.
I will also say all of the Wallace and Gromit shorts. Are they films? Well, they're shorts, but I mean, they each.
son, he is such an enormous Wallace and Gromit fan. It's not even worth saying. They are amazing. They are amazing.
Every single one of them is perfect. And even the one they made with Hollywood money is perfect. And those are infused with British visual language, British culture, British class, and in claymation animation where you don't expect it. They're perfect. ⁓
Yeah. Yeah.
Unbelievable. Yeah
No, it's so
true. is those films, as I say, if you want to think about, you know, the different regions of the UK, then if you watch that, you are seeing a very particular, you know, area of the country and attitude and, you know, yeah, the Wallace and Gromit are, you know, and you can tell that you can always tell if some of that, if...
movies do it really really well, like the Wallace and Gromit, is because people in Britain will cherish it and so you know Wallace and Gromit, you know we've even got like a dark ride at Blackpool of Wallace and Gromit, know which is amazing by the way, ⁓ you know so it's so loved you know because I think it nails it in such a way.
Yeah, it reminds me back in 2011, I went to the the Royal Wedding to cover the Prince William and Catherine Royal Wedding. And I went to the pub afterwards with my colleague who covered it with me. And they replayed the whole wedding while we had a nice pub lunch. And then you know what came on right after the coverage of the Royal Wedding? They played Wallace and Gromit.
Yeah.
What was it?
which was on BBC One, which is the perfect way ⁓ to, the perfect chaser of all that Britishness
it is. That's perfect antidote to it all. To the pomp and ceremony. I'm ashamed of my list now. My goodness me. What great films there. I know I should say I'm ashamed of my list now when you reel off these
So, well, what a wonderful conversation. Sorry, what was that?
They're amazing, yeah, I agree. I'll change mine now, yeah, I'll go with those. like that. Wallace and Gromit, yeah.
% you could,
I think we could talk about this for hours, we really could. I'd love to.
conversation this has been. What a rich subject to get into. Thank you so much for joining us on the Anglotopia podcast, Spencer. If you've been inspired to dig deeper into British Cinema we'll put some recommendations and resources in the show notes, like the BFI Top 100 British Films. And if you have your own favorite British films, the ones that first made you love Britain or the ones you keep coming back to, please share them in the comments on YouTube, Instagram, or Facebook.
We'd love to hear from you. And if you enjoyed this episode of the podcast, please subscribe, like, or comment. And if you like the Anglotopia podcast, please consider joining the Friends of Anglotopia Club, where you get early access to new episodes and connect with other enthusiasts about Britain. So join us next time as we continue exploring the people, places, and stories that make Britain's cultural heritage so endlessly fascinating to discover. Thank you again, Spencer.
