This conversation explores the complex relationship between American Treasury Secretary Andrew Mellon and British Chancellor of the Exchequer Winston Churchill during the post-World War I era, an underexplored era of Churchill’s career that foretold future Anglo-American relations during World War II. The discussion delves into their rivalry over war debt repayments, contrasting their personalities and approaches to diplomacy, and the impact of their interactions on Anglo-American relations. Jill Eicher, the author of ‘Mellon VS. Churchill,’ shares insights from her research, highlighting the challenges of uncovering this historical narrative and the lasting legacy of their dispute.

Links

• Mellon vs Churchill (Bookshop.org link)
• Mellon vs Churchill (Amazon Link)
• Mellon vs Churchill (Blackwell’s Link)
• Andrew Mellon (Wikipedia)
• No More Champagne (Amazon Link)
• Dinner with Churchill (Amazon Link)
• Dinner with Churchill (Bookshop.org link)

Takeaways

• The rivalry between Mellon and Churchill shaped post-war economic policy.
• Mellon’s approach was rooted in financial pragmatism, while Churchill was more idealistic.
• The capacity to pay principle was a key point of contention.
• Their meetings often failed to bridge their differences.
• Public opinion in both countries was influenced by press coverage of their rivalry.
• The 1929 stock market crash had significant repercussions for their relationship.
• Churchill’s North American tour changed his perspective on the U.S.
• The unresolved debts from World War I remain a historical footnote.
• Lessons from their rivalry are relevant for today’s financial leaders.
• The personal backgrounds of Mellon and Churchill influenced their diplomatic strategies.

Sounds Bites

• “I did not find Churchill. Rather, I think he found me.” (00:01:22)
• “Mellon and Churchill were both moving on to the world stage virtually at the same time… This made them rival debt collectors.” (00:04:19-00:05:58)
• “Both Mellon and Churchill aspired to greatness. They were patriotic. They both had exceptional work ethics… However, they were oil and water in how they approached being statesmen.” (00:08:07-00:08:29)
• “Churchill thrived in the public eye and he could change hearts and minds in a speech or on paper.” (00:08:56)
• “Churchill was a sympathetic creditor too, but he was an indignant debtor when it came to repaying the United States. He fervently believed that all the war debts should be canceled.” (00:10:24)
• “Even though they were in close proximity to each other, formally introduced, the day was about that special Anglo-American friendship… It just didn’t extend to Mellon and Churchill that day.” (00:12:31)
• “As Baldwin famously summed up British policy, he said, ‘We will pay you if we must, but you will be CADs if you ask us to.'” (00:15:58)
• “In studying his speeches and published work during this period, I was absolutely ensorcelled by his gift with words.” (00:17:41)
• “It is somewhat like the difference between math and poetry.” (00:19:15) [On their different approaches to debt]
• “It raised that question of what do nations owe one another in terms of trust and honor?” (00:22:30)
• “World War I had cost Britain its financial supremacy and forced it to cede to the United States the role of banker to the world. That cost was seared into Churchill’s heart.” (00:28:52)
• “The story of Mellon versus Churchill is a subtle cautionary tale… Beware of enshrined assumptions.” (00:31:58)

Chapters

• 00:00 Introduction to Anglo-American Relations
• 02:33 The Rivalry of Mellon and Churchill
• 05:40 Historical Context of the 1920s
• 08:30 Differences in Diplomacy
• 11:00 The Capacity to Pay Principle
• 13:52 Significant Meetings and Their Impact
• 16:28 The Role of Stanley Baldwin
• 19:28 Surprises in Research
• 22:23 Public Opinion and Press Coverage
• 25:07 The Impact of the 1929 Stock Market Crash
• 27:55 Legacy of the Dispute
• 30:46 Lessons for Today’s Leaders

Video Version